A rare and crippling memory impairment AND NVLD?

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I looked up "developmental amnesia"- it looks like kids with the lesions that cause developmental amnesia actually do not have the general cognitive and physical problems that you get with other hypoxic/anoxic injuries, so forget the question at the end of my last post. It does look like developmental amnesia tends to selectively impair episodic memory rather than semantic or procedural memory though. You mentioned that something you read suggested otherwise- what was it? Also, it does not sound like the patients with developmental amnesia have a selective problem with long-term memory- from what I read, it looks like the problem is in short-term memory. And of course, if you can't store something properly in short-term memory, it can't go from short-term to long-term memory, so you end up not being able to store the information in either short-term or long-term memory. If you truly have just a long-term memory impairment, then this would seem to be different from developmental amnesia. Though like I said, your issues sound more like a problem with short-term than long-term memory. If you have a problem with short-term memory though, the testing should have picked it up.

Have you ever had the RMBT (Rivermead Behavioral Memory Test)? It is an excellent, and very sensitive, test of memory (I sometimes think it's a little *too* sensitive in identifying memory impairment, in fact). It looks at a variety of types of memory- recall of visual images, faces, routes, names, narratives, new tasks, and "prospective memory" (things you need to do later- like appointments). It does not look specifically at long-term memory, but unless you have an acute injury that caused retrograde amnesia (amnesia for events that happened before the brain injury), most problems with long-term memory (other than dementia or some other degenerative diseases) are related to problems with short-term memory.

What memory tests have you had, by the way? I'm sure there are multiple good memory tests out there, but the RBMT is the one I am most familiar with (I give it probably once a week). If you lived near me, I would test you for free!

Never mind- I ran across a case study where the kid had semantic but not episodic memory impairment.

Hello LostInSpace,

I was hoping to hear from you actually. I have been lurking on WP for several months now and have read many of your posts. You seem very knowledgeable regarding all things NLD (and in knowledgeable in general) though I can't honestly say anything you've written thus far has given me further insight into my own particular issues. I've always been in a bad place...but in spite of that I HAVEN'T always been AS depressed and desperate about my "bad place". When I was in my twenties and early thirties I still had some hope, albeit fairly slim. Between my mid-thirties and now I pretty much lost all hope, but nontheless resigned myself to my fate for various reasons not worth mentioning. This former resignation is no longer with me and hasn't been for the past year or so. Let's just say I met someone very special to me, she is an NT and she brought back all the things that might-have-been (not deliberately but...) if I wasn't cursed with this monstrous brain impairment/soul impairment...whatever. The psychic pain i'm contending with is simply inexpressible so that being said, I won't say anything more about it. Rather, i'll just address your questions/statements and go from there.

It's hard for me to isolate a "main problem" really. I have had so many problems and it's hard to say if any single one was worse than all the others. Anyway....i'll try to give you some relevant examples. I have problems with cash registers....my ability to process mental math is too slow. For example, if an item costs $2.12 and a customer handed me $2.37 (thus indicating they wanted a quarter back) I would freeze up while trying to compute things like that in my head. So I was fired from two jobs involving a cash register because I couldn't handle the mental math. Also...even very simple mechanical tasks are pretty much beyond me. I've been fired from a few jobs for my lack of mechanical aptitude. None of these tasks required any special training...i'm referring to things even most eight y/o's can handle. I was a waiter at one restaurant and was fired because I couldn't master the computer/POS system they used, had trouble consolidating my tables and couldn't distinguish certain (though very similar) entrees from another. I worked as a waiter at another restaurant for two years (while I was in college) and I had similar troubles. The management and trainers there were very patient with me and I eventually "got the hang of it" though never as well as every other server. Up until my last day there....I still had problems with the computer/POS system. I don't really seem to have any major short-term memory problems and none of my tests results suggest that. The interpersonal difficulities were present as well, but nothing so outstanding that it led to termination from any of the jobs i've held. I certainly feel I have a procedural memory problem, learning ANY new task seems impossible for me or all-but impossible at best. I am familiar with Yvonna Fast's book, but i've never read it. I have an appointment with a job-coach next week and even though i'm profoundly depressed and hopeless about all aspects of my existence, i'm TRYING to stay remotely positive about that. According to Judy, this person has done wonders for people with NLD/AS though i'm not sure if she works with *our* community exclusively.

As far as I know I did not have a hypoxic injury at birth or anytime after. Babies are on oxygen monitoring from birth until they leave the hospital (<I THINK.) If I had a hypoxic brain injury at birth or not long after, i'm sure the oxygen monitor would've indicated as much. Furthermore, i'm sure my parents would've told me by now if I did. As for whatever might have been amiss (hypoxia or something else) while I was in the womb....god only knows. The only thing i'm hypothesizing is that SOMETHING seems to have caused memory (semantic and procedural) problems far beyond any that NLD itself normally entails (like issues with visual memory which I apparently have too.) At any rate....hypoxia and resultant developmental amnesia (involving semantic/procedural memory..many cases of DA seem to leave semantic/procedural intact while impairing episodic) was just one of my latest theories and probably not a very good one. Maybe I just have an extreme *case* of NLD and the answer is as simple as that. All I know is that if we want to define "extreme" solely by my WAIS and other IQ test scores, then I don't seem all THAT exceptional. I have encountered plenty of NLD-ers (online over the years) who don't score any higher than I do and quite a few have obtained significantly lower scores. Nonetheless...VERY FEW, if any, of these people seem to be anything close to as *low-functioning* in just about every aspect of life. Many have social deficts which are no better than mine and some are quite a bit worse off in that sense. But it seems most are able to complete college (even including courses in math/science), hold decent-paying skilled occupations (even if some experience instability in that area and that usually seems due to NLD-related social problems) and otherwise function at least somewhere close to as well as most NT adults.

I do think a brain injury like the one in question would show up on an MRI. The Hippocampus is particularily vunerable to Hypoxic-Ischaemic injury. Unfortunately, I cannot afford an MRI at this time and no one is willing to cover the cost of one for me. My insurance won't cover it either...some i'm f**ked there too. Anyway.....thank you very much for the reply. I may never get to the bottom of this, but i'm going to keep trying until the day I die. As rotten as my life is....i'd prefer to know precisely WHY it's been so rotten all these long years.

Hello LostInSpace,

I was hoping to hear from you actually. I have been lurking on WP for several months now and have read many of your posts. You seem very knowledgeable regarding all things NLD (and in knowledgeable in general) though I can't honestly say anything you've written thus far has given me further insight into my own particular issues. I've always been in a bad place...but in spite of that I HAVEN'T always been AS depressed and desperate about my "bad place". When I was in my twenties and early thirties I still had some hope, albeit fairly slim. Between my mid-thirties and now I pretty much lost all hope, but nontheless resigned myself to my fate for various reasons not worth mentioning. This former resignation is no longer with me and hasn't been for the past year or so. Let's just say I met someone very special to me, she is an NT and she brought back all the things that might-have-been (not deliberately but...) if I wasn't cursed with this monstrous brain impairment/soul impairment...whatever. The psychic pain i'm contending with is simply inexpressible so that being said, I won't say anything more about it. Rather, i'll just address your questions/statements and go from there.

It's hard for me to isolate a "main problem" really. I have had so many problems and it's hard to say if any single one was worse than all the others. Anyway....i'll try to give you some relevant examples. I have problems with cash registers....my ability to process mental math is too slow. For example, if an item costs $2.12 and a customer handed me $2.37 (thus indicating they wanted a quarter back) I would freeze up while trying to compute things like that in my head. So I was fired from two jobs involving a cash register because I couldn't handle the mental math. Also...even very simple mechanical tasks are pretty much beyond me. I've been fired from a few jobs for my lack of mechanical aptitude. None of these tasks required any special training...i'm referring to things even most eight y/o's can handle. I was a waiter at one restaurant and was fired because I couldn't master the computer/POS system they used, had trouble consolidating my tables and couldn't distinguish certain (though very similar) entrees from another. I worked as a waiter at another restaurant for two years (while I was in college) and I had similar troubles. The management and trainers there were very patient with me and I eventually "got the hang of it" though never as well as every other server. Up until my last day there....I still had problems with the computer/POS system. I don't really seem to have any major short-term memory problems and none of my tests results suggest that. The interpersonal difficulities were present as well, but nothing so outstanding that it led to termination from any of the jobs i've held. I certainly feel I have a procedural memory problem, learning ANY new task seems impossible for me or all-but impossible at best. I am familiar with Yvonna Fast's book, but i've never read it. I have an appointment with a job-coach next week and even though i'm profoundly depressed and hopeless about all aspects of my existence, i'm TRYING to stay remotely positive about that. According to Judy, this person has done wonders for people with NLD/AS though i'm not sure if she works with *our* community exclusively.

As far as I know I did not have a hypoxic injury at birth or anytime after. Babies are on oxygen monitoring from birth until they leave the hospital (<I THINK.) If I had a hypoxic brain injury at birth or not long after, i'm sure the oxygen monitor would've indicated as much. Furthermore, i'm sure my parents would've told me by now if I did. As for whatever might have been amiss (hypoxia or something else) while I was in the womb....god only knows. The only thing i'm hypothesizing is that SOMETHING seems to have caused memory (semantic and procedural) problems far beyond any that NLD itself normally entails (like issues with visual memory which I apparently have too.) At any rate....hypoxia and resultant developmental amnesia (involving semantic/procedural memory..many cases of DA seem to leave semantic/procedural intact while impairing episodic) was just one of my latest theories and probably not a very good one. Maybe I just have an extreme *case* of NLD and the answer is as simple as that. All I know is that if we want to define "extreme" solely by my WAIS and other IQ test scores, then I don't seem all THAT exceptional. I have encountered plenty of NLD-ers (online over the years) who don't score any higher than I do and quite a few have obtained significantly lower scores. Nonetheless...VERY FEW, if any, of these people seem to be anything close to as *low-functioning* in just about every aspect of life. Many have social deficts which are no better than mine and some are quite a bit worse off in that sense. But it seems most are able to complete college (even including courses in math/science), hold decent-paying skilled occupations (even if some experience instability in that area and that usually seems due to NLD-related social problems) and otherwise function at least somewhere close to as well as most NT adults.

I do think a brain injury like the one in question would show up on an MRI. The Hippocampus is particularily vunerable to Hypoxic-Ischaemic injury. Unfortunately, I cannot afford an MRI at this time and no one is willing to cover the cost of one for me. My insurance won't cover it either...some i'm f**ked there too. Anyway.....thank you very much for the reply. I may never get to the bottom of this, but i'm going to keep trying until the day I die. As rotten as my life is....i'd prefer to know precisely WHY it's been so rotten all these long years.

Ack....sorry about that ^^

Yes....I found that out as well eventually. Everything I read initially suggested that DA impacts episodic memory... not semantic. Apparently that's not the case and I myself was bit skeptical.

Sorry....I somehow missed this last paragraph in your post....perhaps another NLD moment eh? I don't seem to recall the details of things I read either immediately afterwards or beyond that. Again i'll give an example of what I mean. I could read 3-4 chapters in say, a Psych 101 textbook and ace an exam on those chapters. But if you asked me to write a paper about everything (or let's just say a substantial amount of things) I read in those chapters STRICTLY from memory, I could never do it. If I had to give a talk about a substantial number of the things I read in those chapters strictly from memory, I could never do it. Nor does it seem to matter how many times i've read about any given thing or how interesting I find the subject. Sure I could pass (with A's often enough) multiple choice/completion/true-false exams after reading 3-4 chapters the night before the exam. But if someone wanted to have detailed conversation with me about the things I read in those chapters, i'd only be able to recall the most superficial and basic things. I have no problem remembering much of what happens in my day-to-day. Sometimes I do simply because NOTHING usually happens in my day-to-day life that's worth remembering. I probably couldn't tell you what I ate last week or even, a few days ago. But this type of memory glitch seems typical enough for NT's too.

I have no physical problems....never have. All the results of my blood tests were within normal levels everytime i've had one. The cognitive problems I have not related to memory mostly involve anything having to do with higher math/science Even adding/subtracting/multiplying and dividing fractions is difficult for me. But that in itself appears to be a memory problem. I have no trouble understanding how to add, subtract, etc....fractions, I just never remember HOW to do it no matter how many times I LEARN how to do it. Now higher math like algebra is something I can't comprehend easily, if at all. And I recall having memory problems in Algebra I as too. Just to name one example...I never seem to remember which </> means "greater than" and which means "lesser than". Even the mnemonic devices in that area don't seem to assist me. Keep in mind this is JUST ONE example out of an infinite number of them. There are so many symbols, terms, steps, etc....in higher math like algebra I can't imagine ever being able to recall them providing I could COMPREHEND algebra in the first place. I also have problems with my fine motor skills....my handwriting is atrocious. I've always had hand tremors...even as a child. My mechanical aptitude/visual-spatial skills are pretty much non-existent. I can drive (an automatic at least) and believe it or not, i'm actually a pretty good driver (<shades of Rainman here?) I've never been in an accident which was my fault and i've been driving for 19 years. I can even parallel park pretty well. I just mention driving because I know alot of people NLD/AS struggle with it....I personally never have though god knows if I could learn to drive a stick. I have so many problems it would take eons for me to go through the whole litany of them. I wish I could say there was something that comes easy for me but few things really seem to.


I have known there was something wrong with me since I was around 8. I remember the first time it REALLY dawned on me. I was in gym class and they teaching us how to lace our sneakers (lace....not tie.) There were only two people in the gym who couldn't master it. Me and a girl named Heather who was obviously defacto mentally ret*d based upon her facial features (Down syndrome, FAS, etc....) So i'm sure you can guess how that made me feel.

Cool! Thank you for the compliment. NLD is definitely a special interest of mine, and actually, so is neuropsychology/neurology in general. My supervisor at work recently called me "the closest thing our department has to a neurologist" (which is definitely over-stating the situation, but it *is* an interest of mine).



Yeah, I don't usually write about memory, except for visual/spatial memory, which for me is abysmal and a constant source of difficulty in my life. My semantic memory (for verbal info) is actually one of my greatest strengths.


I'm sorry to hear that things have been so rough for you, but I'm glad you have a special someone in your life. I've had some periods of bleak, black depression myself, but fortunately they have been really brief, almost more like meltdowns except for the emotions I feel, and that taste of depression is enough to make me hope to never experience a full-blown major depressive episode. The only thing that keeps me safe during those times is 1) the brevity of the episodes and 2) the fact that I am literally too depressed to do anything other than lie in bed (so that I would actually have to be *less* depressed to kill myself).



Those definitely sound like NLD issues. You might think about checking out that book I mentioned in the other thread (or was it this one?- whichever), and also read some of the stories by adults with NLD on the web- unfortunately I think some of the best (if I am recalling correctly) are on the "NLD on the Web" site, but it looks like they are under construction currently, though check out this one:

http://www.nldline.com/newpage117.htm



I wish you tons of luck. Being without hope has to be among the worst feelings in the world, so I hope you can get some help and get through this.


I don't know that I would trust formal testing to determine the *degree* of impairment from NLD, at least not in all cases. Formal testing is good at identifying the pattern of deficits that characterizes NLD, but people with NLD also tend to have a lot of other issues that are not tested for, yet can significantly impact functioning. You are the best judge of how well you function.



I totally get that. I was very driven to find out why I have the problems that I do. It's especially nice to have an official name and confirmation of impairment, simply because most people don't "get" the kinds of problems NLDers struggle with. Either they have a reaction like "Oh yeah, I have trouble with that, too", or the issue is completely beyond their comprehension entirely (like how someone can fail to understand the dynamics of turning at intersections). The first one really bugs me, I mean, would you go up to someone with aphasia and say, "Oh yeah, I have trouble with word-finding sometimes, too"? Not unless you are really insensitive. Yet people have these reactions to those with AS and NLD all the time. Very annoying.

Anyway, I really hope that things turn around for you. Not be totally cliche, but I think it is sometimes true that "It is always darkest before the dawn," so hopefully your "dawn" is waiting just beyond the horizon. Wow, that was totally corny but it is late, so please forgive me. I'm headed off to bed now, but I will definitely check back tomorrow for any responses.

Sorry LOS.... i'm unable to post a more lengthy reply now, I just wanted to tell you what memory tests
i've had:


Wechsler Memory Scale-III
Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figures Drawing
Auditory Process Composites
Tactual Performance Examination



These were all administered on one of my four neuropsych tests. Here's what was said about my memory functioning in this particular test:



"Performance on learning, recall and recognition of verbal and figural material ranges from superior to borderline. Superior performance is seen on tests measuring immediate and delayed auditory memory as well as auditory recognition. His memory for geometrical figures falls within the above average range and reduces to the average range on delayed recall. His score is in the average range on a task requiring him to recall the spatial location and shapes following a tactile form recognition and psychomotor problem solving task. Average performance is shown on immediate and delayed visual memory as well as recognition and working memory tasks. His performance is also in the average range on a task requiring him to reproduce a complex two-dimensional geometrical figure following a thirty minute delay, but is in the borderline level on immediate reproduction of the design. Performance improves to the above average range during recognition of the complex figure".

More ASAP....Horus