Mind= blown.
29 Sep 2009, 4:13 am
Although it seems obvious that a bunch of flying dumb rocks and exploding stars have no capability for awareness or contemplation the verdict is most often given with little consideration about the nature of thought. The process of thinking in conscious minds (or, at minimum, in my conscious mind) by constructing as accurate a mental model of my environment as possible and manipulating the model in as many ways as I can conceive in the way I assume it would function in reality. When I have finally formed a mental model that seems to be able to function in the way I desire I can copy the mental model in real material and test it. If it has problems I investigate why my mental model does not conform to reality and readjust my conceptions to reconstruct my physical model and at end, if I have gone through a series of adjustments that bring my model into function I have thought out the problem successfully. The universe is not conscious in the normal way we consider consciousness but it has rigid laws as to how matter and energy interact. The universe does not make conscious models. But it does continuously rearrange the interactions of its components which then come into various new rearrangements. In effect what conscious minds do with theoretical models the universe does with the universe itself as a model. There is no "success" or "failure" in this process as there is no preconceived end to which the universe proceeds. But, as in Darwinian evolution, certain environments permit the persistence of particular forms and the forces of nature continually manufactures new attempts to create this persistence and, of course, in the rather random approach of creating everything possible, the overwhelming number of new creations are miserable failures. Nevertheless the exceedingly minuscule successes are what we must credit for our own existence and that is a strange form of thinking without consciousness.
29 Sep 2009, 8:31 am
Sand wrote:
Although it seems obvious that a bunch of flying dumb rocks and exploding stars have no capability for awareness or contemplation the verdict is most often given with little consideration about the nature of thought. The process of thinking in conscious minds (or, at minimum, in my conscious mind) by constructing as accurate a mental model of my environment as possible and manipulating the model in as many ways as I can conceive in the way I assume it would function in reality. When I have finally formed a mental model that seems to be able to function in the way I desire I can copy the mental model in real material and test it. If it has problems I investigate why my mental model does not conform to reality and readjust my conceptions to reconstruct my physical model and at end, if I have gone through a series of adjustments that bring my model into function I have thought out the problem successfully. The universe is not conscious in the normal way we consider consciousness but it has rigid laws as to how matter and energy interact. The universe does not make conscious models. But it does continuously rearrange the interactions of its components which then come into various new rearrangements. In effect what conscious minds do with theoretical models the universe does with the universe itself as a model. There is no "success" or "failure" in this process as there is no preconceived end to which the universe proceeds. But, as in Darwinian evolution, certain environments permit the persistence of particular forms and the forces of nature continually manufactures new attempts to create this persistence and, of course, in the rather random approach of creating everything possible, the overwhelming number of new creations are miserable failures. Nevertheless the exceedingly minuscule successes are what we must credit for our own existence and that is a strange form of thinking without consciousness.
Agree, by and large.
Consciousness is the result of a physical process or processes so it is no different in metaphysical status than any other organic complex of chemical reactions.
Good essay.
Grade of A for style and compactness of expression.
ruveyn
sartresue
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29 Sep 2009, 10:14 am
The Sand of our time topic
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
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29 Sep 2009, 12:11 pm
sartresue wrote:
The Sand of our time topic
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
There are other living creatures who are not only aware of other life but are enthusiastic about their flavor. I never tried to intimate that the galaxies were conscious. Merely that they were involved in processes directed by natural laws.
29 Sep 2009, 12:17 pm
Atomsk wrote:
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Maybe mind is outside the Universe. An unexpected by-product...
ruveyn wrote:
Consciousness is the result of a physical process or processes so it is no different in metaphysical status than any other organic complex of chemical reactions.
LOL what?
Consciousness material? How much does that weigh?
29 Sep 2009, 12:42 pm
Vana wrote:
Atomsk wrote:
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Maybe mind is outside the Universe. An unexpected by-product...
ruveyn wrote:
Consciousness is the result of a physical process or processes so it is no different in metaphysical status than any other organic complex of chemical reactions.
LOL what?
Consciousness material? How much does that weigh?
That depends on its molecular compostion.
Your brain is conscious material and weighs about three pounds.
The way to think about our physicality in ALL aspects is this: We are like sh*t that walks and talks.
ruveyn
29 Sep 2009, 12:42 pm
Vana wrote:
Atomsk wrote:
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Maybe mind is outside the Universe. An unexpected by-product...
ruveyn wrote:
Consciousness is the result of a physical process or processes so it is no different in metaphysical status than any other organic complex of chemical reactions.
LOL what?
Consciousness material? How much does that weigh?
Where do you get the concept that, aside from the material components involved, processes alone have weight?
sartresue
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29 Sep 2009, 12:50 pm
Sand wrote:
sartresue wrote:
The Sand of our time topic
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
There are other living creatures who are not only aware of other life but are enthusiastic about their flavor. I never tried to intimate that the galaxies were conscious. Merely that they were involved in processes directed by natural laws.
Re-vison topic
Specifically, I want to know how the human brain is conscious of itself, without the religious angle.
_________________
Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory
NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo
29 Sep 2009, 12:58 pm
sartresue wrote:
Sand wrote:
sartresue wrote:
The Sand of our time topic
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
^^ Very good, and also what ruveyn wrote.
Still puzzled, though. Humans (as far as we know) are the only life aware of life. I am skeptical of the consciousness of the Milky Way, black holes, planets, dark matter and Red Dwarfs.
I would like to know how and why, without the religious angle.
There are other living creatures who are not only aware of other life but are enthusiastic about their flavor. I never tried to intimate that the galaxies were conscious. Merely that they were involved in processes directed by natural laws.
Re-vison topic
Specifically, I want to know how the human brain is conscious of itself, without the religious angle.
I have interacted with quite a few animals and, to my satisfaction, they are all conscious of themselves and their surroundings. I fail to see why humans should be an exception.
29 Sep 2009, 3:59 pm
Vana wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Your brain is conscious material and weighs about three pounds.
You may have missed something very important... the brain is not the mind. (Common mistake, don't sweat it.)
What do you base that on? All our mental processes occur in our brains. How are the two seperate?
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29 Sep 2009, 6:14 pm
Vana wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Your brain is conscious material and weighs about three pounds.
You may have missed something very important... the brain is not the mind. (Common mistake, don't sweat it.)
Our Mind (or more correctly our Mindings) is one of the things our brains do.
ruveyn
30 Sep 2009, 2:55 am
Atomsk wrote:
Everything in our solar system, so far as we know, came from an unknown number of supernova explosions (We believe this because that is the only place where the heavier elements can be synthesized). Thus we are all quite literally, stardust. The dust from an unknown number of stars has assembled itself into us and in doing so, has gained the ability to question itself.
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Edit: because people are getting way to specific and completely missing the point.
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Edit: because people are getting way to specific and completely missing the point.
My mind is blown!! ! Ok not really...
Imagine this though. If animals can reason (slightly) and humans can think. Then what abilities will we gain if given 2000 years to evolve? I personally have no answer. but it might be that we can change reality to where we can do anything like flying without technology. After all everything that we see is just a vibration, and I think this vibration is dependent on us too understand it. So if we can understand more vibrations then more realities become possible.
30 Sep 2009, 3:04 am
Henriksson wrote:
Vana wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Your brain is conscious material and weighs about three pounds.
You may have missed something very important... the brain is not the mind. (Common mistake, don't sweat it.)
What do you base that on? All our mental processes occur in our brains. How are the two seperate?
She's right, the brain is not the mind. The mind is the electromagnetic field that emerges from the brain. This EM energy which is consciousness itself only uses the brain as a temporary housing.
Consciousness is experience, a humans experience is temporary because it dies, but the consciousness just moves on to other experiences. It's not made up of something that ends.
30 Sep 2009, 3:53 am
122112 wrote:
Atomsk wrote:
Everything in our solar system, so far as we know, came from an unknown number of supernova explosions (We believe this because that is the only place where the heavier elements can be synthesized). Thus we are all quite literally, stardust. The dust from an unknown number of stars has assembled itself into us and in doing so, has gained the ability to question itself.
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Edit: because people are getting way to specific and completely missing the point.
Therefore, since we are all part of the universe, that means that humans are the universe questioning itself. (for those of you who don't understand, I am not talking about it willfully making us to question itself, I'm talking about a bunch of random stuff happening that just happened to make life on earth, and then humans)
Edit: because people are getting way to specific and completely missing the point.
My mind is blown!! ! Ok not really...
Imagine this though. If animals can reason (slightly) and humans can think. Then what abilities will we gain if given 2000 years to evolve? I personally have no answer. but it might be that we can change reality to where we can do anything like flying without technology. After all everything that we see is just a vibration, and I think this vibration is dependent on us too understand it. So if we can understand more vibrations then more realities become possible.
Although vibrations can be fascinating (ask anybody with a vibrator) there is a hell of a lot more to it than that. Around two thousand years ago the Romans were abusing Jews. There has not been much sophistication added to the process since then although the Jews are a bit better off these days the CIA still seems to lean on the same basic technology in their inquiries into truth. Give us a couple of million years for slight improvements if the ecology lasts that long.
An electric transformer also depends upon electromagnetic radiation but no one has been able to detect much activity in that area after the transformer burns out.
30 Sep 2009, 8:43 am
122112 wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
Vana wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Your brain is conscious material and weighs about three pounds.
You may have missed something very important... the brain is not the mind. (Common mistake, don't sweat it.)
What do you base that on? All our mental processes occur in our brains. How are the two seperate?
She's right, the brain is not the mind. The mind is the electromagnetic field that emerges from the brain. This EM energy which is consciousness itself only uses the brain as a temporary housing.
Consciousness is experience, a humans experience is temporary because it dies, but the consciousness just moves on to other experiences. It's not made up of something that ends.
I'm not convinced. I made some google searching, and found an article that only speculated that it could be true. I think you'll have to elaborate a bit more on this.
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"Purity is for drinking water, not people" - Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
