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southwestforests
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01 Oct 2009, 11:45 am

Second sentence in this article http://altoonamirror.com/page/content.d ... ml?nav=742 starts with what is either a load of arrogant crap or a load of ignorant crap

Quote:
It's the only all-electric, plug-in locomotive in the world,


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

There are and have been hundreds of rechargeable battery-electric mining and industrial locomotives of various gauges all over the planet for at least twice as long as I've been alive. Maybe three times as long.

This in the title
Quote:
Norfolk Southern unveils world’s first electric locomotive

Is so far beyond comment it ain't funny.


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Coadunate
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01 Oct 2009, 12:30 pm

Here are three more facts the ignorant/arrogants don’t know:

1. How much does 1080 12 volt batteries weigh versus the energy cost of carrying them?
2. How much does 1080 12 volt batteries cost versus the cost of subsidizing locally grown or manufactured produce or goods instead of ones that have to be transported from as far away as China?
3. How much pollution is produced in charging PLUS manufacturing 1080 12 volt batteries versus the pollution produced by a diesel engine?

The power storage technology DOES NOT EXIST to make this environmentally friendly. They could have had better environmental results if they went out and passed out condoms to reduce the population.



1qaz2wsx
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01 Oct 2009, 12:48 pm

Acknowlegements to people.clarkson.edu
Now a battery capable of rapid discharge can also be rapidly charged, for the changes involved in discharge are roughly the reverse of those involved in charging. To construct such a commercially viable cell was the problem which Drumm undertook and solved so brilliantly. From 1926 to 1931 he worked unremittingly at his research which eventually produced the Drumm Traction Battery and in that year -1931- he was awarded the Degree of D.Sc. by the National University of Ireland for his researches.

Familiar with all the snags of the quinhydrone cell and the lead accumulator, Drumm now turned his attention to the construction of a new alkaline cell. At that time possibly the most commonly used alkaline cell was that devised by Edison. It was a nickel-iron cell with potassium hydroxide solution as electrolyte. the reactions in the cell may be written:

charge->
2Ni(OH)2(s) + Fe(OH)2(s) <-> 2Ni(OH)3(s) + Fe(s)
<- discharge

The E.M.F. of this cell is 1.34 volts. The iron anode tends to become passive and also the rates of charge and discharge are rather low. Drumm got the idea of using a zinc negative electrode and after much experimenting used an electrolyte containing zinc oxide dissolved in potassium hydroxide solution, in effect, potassium zincate solution.

The Drumm Cell, which has been the subject of patent rights in all the principal countries of the world, is an alkaline cell and the only metals which enter into its construction are stainless steel and pure nickel. Its mechanical strength is therefore quite satisfactory. The positive-plate system consists of the hydroxides of nickel mixed with nickel flakes. This electrode was first developed by Edison. The negative plate is a grid of nickel gauze and the electrolyte is a solution of zinc oxide in potassium hydroxide (potassium zincate). During charge zinc is plated on to the nickel grid, and during discharge this zinc dissolves readily in the potassium hydroxide. The reactions in the Drumm cell may thus be written:

charge->
2Ni(OH)2(s) + Zn(OH)2(s) <-> 2Ni(OH)3(s) + Zn(s)
<-discharge

Effectively then, the negative system is Zinc/Zinc hydroxide. The above reaction permits rapid charging and discharging rates - a great advantage over the Edison nickel-iron cell in which the ferric hydroxide in insoluble in potassium hydroxide. The E.M.F. of the Drumm cell is 1.85 volts and even at high discharge rates is some 40% higher than that of other alkaline cells of the Edison Ni/Fe type. Chiefly in consequence of its high voltage and low internal resistance this battery could be charged and discharged many times a day. Unlike the lead accumulator the amp-hour capacity of the Drumm cell is independent of the rate of discharge. Thus, this cell will furnish 600 amps continuously for 1 hour, or 900 amps for 40 minutes or 200 amps for 3 hours. The standard rate of charging for a single traction cell of weight 112 lb and allowing for all losses in efficiency, corresponds to an input of 0.134 effective watt-hour/lb/minute which is about four times the normal rate for alkaline cells. In practice the same cell is normally discharged at 400 amps and at an average voltage of 1.65 volts which is equivalent to about 0.1 watt-hour/lb/minute.

This figure is twice the highest discharge rate of other alkaline cells. But over and above this the current can, when required, be raised to 1000 amps for limited periods, corresponding to an energy delivery of about 0.22 watt-hour/lb/minute - a very high rate indeed. The Drumm cell deals with these loads quite comfortably and with no sign of deterioration. Another feature of the Drumm battery is that it cannot be damaged in any way by frequent over-charging or over-discharging. Neither can prolonged reversals of current through the battery when discharging, cause any harm. The maximum allowable cell-temperature for this battery is 45 oC. The working life of the Drumm battery has been assessed as not less than ten years. Tests carried out on the nickel grid show that it can withstand hundreds of thousands of cathodic and anodic polarisations. The electrolyte is comparatively cheap and can be changed or renewed at very small cost.

The original Drumm train was constructed in the Great Southern Railways workshops at Inchicore. The weight of the train with passengers was about 85 tons. There was seating accommodation for 140 passengers. The train could accelerate from standstill at about 1 m.p.h. per second and attain speeds of 40 to 50 m.p.h. with ease. The train was fitted with a successful system of regenerative braking, whereby an important fraction of the energy surge made available on a down-gradient or on de-accelerating at a station was returned to the battery. The Drumm Battery train operated successfully on the Dublin to Bray section of the line with occasional runs to Greystones some five miles farther on, from 1932 to 1948. As passsenger numbers increased two pairs of power units were joined under the control of one driver and later a specially wired coach was put between the two trains bringing its capacity up to 400 passengers. By 1939, four Drumm trains had been built but it became impossible to secure orders and raw material once the World War 11, 1939-1945, broke out. The Drumm Battery Company folded in 1940. The outbreak of the war made the Drumm trains invaluable as coal for steam engines was in short supply and inferior. With the war over, it was decided in 1949 to scrap the Drumm trains at a time when the promise of diesel locomotives pointed to the end of the steam era. The Drumm trains, minus their batteries were sometimes used as ordinary coaches.



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01 Oct 2009, 3:17 pm

I saw a recent paper on a hybird diesel / electric train engine.

Normally the engine uses its electric motors with a large resistive load as a means of braking. But if the resistors are replaced with sodium sulfur cells the engine is able to recharge its cells each time it brakes. It is then able to discharge the cells each time is speeds up to allow the machine to reduce the volume of diesel fuel which it uses to drive trains.

While hybrid is not a magic solution the idea of the hybird train engine seems OK to me.


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southwestforests
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01 Oct 2009, 3:46 pm

Coadunate wrote:
3. How much pollution is produced in charging PLUS manufacturing 1080 12 volt batteries versus the pollution produced by a diesel engine?

To make a fair comparison would want to add drilling and refining of diesel; mining of metal ores; foundry work of steel production; and, manufacture of diesel motors.


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Coadunate
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01 Oct 2009, 5:06 pm

southwestforests wrote:

Quote:
Coadunate wrote:
3. How much pollution is produced in charging PLUS manufacturing 1080 12 volt batteries versus the pollution produced by a diesel engine?

To make a fair comparison would want to add drilling and refining of diesel; mining of metal ores; foundry work of steel production; and, manufacture of diesel motors.


To be even more fair you cannot compare a diesel motor with a battery. I don’t know what type of batteries they are using but the cheapest type of battery which is heavy as heck and found in every automobile needs to be replaced about every five or six years, the battery on in my drill needs to be replaced every seven years and the battery in my cell phone needs to be replaced every eight years. My drill and cell phone batteries even though lighter are so expensive that I never replace them but just get a new drill or cell phone. A diesel engine however if maintained and rebuilt properly can last almost forever. As for the cost of refining diesel, in almost every step of the refining process the byproducts that are extracted are utilized in other ways. So the cost of refining diesel is divided among these products. And I haven’t even mentioned the down time (remember time is money) that goes toward charging the batteries to run this locomotive unless they made it so that the batteries can be quickly unloaded, and charged ones loaded in their place, but I don’t think the people at Juniata Locomotive Shop in Altoona are that intelligent.



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02 Oct 2009, 4:47 pm

Marketing BS. This blatant lying is present all over the media so it became acceptable somehow.

"World's fastest personal computer!! !" Err no, no one can make that claim.

Every single movie is always "number one movie in America!! !"

Every car is always "best in its class".

"Four out of five prefer our stuff over our competitor's stuff!! !" without ever substantiating the claim.

Etc... I stopped paying attention to this nonsense. Google is my friend.