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Magnus
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10 Oct 2009, 2:23 pm

What is spirit? Spirit is energy supposedly. It's the essence of life, the vehicle that transforms one state of life into another state of being. Nobody knows exactly what this vehicle is, but if you believe it exists and testify to being aware of it on some level, then you are spiritual. If this makes no sense to you, then you are probably not spiritual because you have not experienced the spiritual realm.

If it is true that invisible entities of a lower nature exist, why wouldn't it be possible for invisible entities of a higher nature to exist? Some people think that humans are the highest forms of life in the universe. This to me seems highly unlikely, for if it is true, what a waste this universe is since most of this universe is comprised of non-material forms of energy.

btw, religious people are not necessarily spiritual and spiritual people are not necessarily religious.


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ruveyn
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10 Oct 2009, 2:38 pm

Magnus wrote:
What is spirit? Spirit is energy supposedly. .


Are you telling us the spirit is measured in units of force x distance?

ruveyn



skafather84
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10 Oct 2009, 3:47 pm

The "spirit" has no empirical accounting and no one should expect any such accounting anytime soon.


That being said: my bit of fiction says that the spirit is an entity of fifth dimensional properties..."free will" which means ultimately in control of fate/destiny/probability in some ways. By fifth dimension, I don't mean as within the 11 described for m-theory but rather in the idea of a dimension above time; in essence, to consider the idea of multiple universes, one has to consider this means multiple probabilities which means that the instance of probabilities itself varies from universe-timeline to universe-timeline and I consider the soup of probability to be the "fifth dimension". Wrong, I know...but like I said: fiction....a book of lies, if you will.


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10 Oct 2009, 4:03 pm

I'd say that I'm highly spiritually inclined but I also have to admit that I'm PDD-NOS, my particular mix of AS and NT traits is pretty far out there, enough to say that I'm something of a third wheel. Seems like if I've noticed anything its that mainstream AS traits seem to, if anything, predispose people to s very rigid take on materialism.



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10 Oct 2009, 4:20 pm

mgran wrote:
Most people when they use the term "spiritual" are not thinking about the "fourth dimension", or transdimensional physics, or any other such interesting concepts.

Most people, when talking about "spirituality" are basically giving themselves a pat on the back for some feel good notions they may have developed that help them function in the real world.

For example, a woman at work tells me that she has a spirit guide who lives under her right arm, and "guides" her in her decisions. (This is the finance manager, for crying out loud...) I ask her if she's sure that her oxter dweller is necessarily the best person to ask for advice, and she informs me that it's "normally a sweet and wise old red indian woman... but sometimes is a tiger or a snake."

Under normal circumstances, you'd assume this woman was insane, but apparently not. She's "spiritual."

Just for the record, I'm a Christian, (am happy to discuss this on a different thread, so as not to derail this one) I believe reality is far bigger than we can perceive, and that our little fragments of comprehension are woefully inadequate.

But I refuse on point of principle to say that anybody is "spiritual", because "spiritual" is short hand for "I have feelings that make me happy, supposed insights that make me feel important, and I'm too lazy to express what I'm feeling in any kind of language that makes sense to anyone. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're on a lesser spiritual plane than I am."

"Spirituality" makes no sense in the fourth dimension if it has no effect in the dimensions we actually live in.

Someone can sit and say "ohm" to his or her naval till the Sacred Cows come home, if they're not actually doing anything to make the world a better place their spirituality is an empty ritual, and won't do them, or anyone else, a blind bit of good.

"You may raise your hands to me in prayer, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood." That's what the prophet Isaiah (who never claimed to be spiritual) said God had to say about ritualistic nonsense. What's the point of spirituality when over half the world goes to bed hungry? Our hands are full of blood.


There are a lot of patent borderline narcissists out there who do just what you say - wield 'spiritual' around as a label of being better (self-delusion, if there is a human spirit then we're all in the same game and if lets say vast amounts of time are spent in the spiritual world while being in the material world is very short - what's their great achievement?). In reality, if we all have spirit, being spiritual is as much of an honor badge as going to work and feeling like your special because you have more pictures of your kids, your cats, your husband, and your house plastered all over your cubicle than anyone else (and yes, spirit world being home - this world being work - they're quite literally doing just that).

On the other hand though, when I say that I would define myself that way on some levels, I would say that its a way of expressing a very gut-level, what's probably been with me all my life and would have been regardless of how I was raised, feeling that there is something greater. Its partly an emotional structure - as a kid, even as a young adult, my emotions, my desires, weren't wrapped around the base line or the least common denominator goals - to most people that's actually a sign of genetic inferiority, realistically I would have been doing myself a huge favor to make myself as base-oriented as possible. Its not in me though, still isn't probably never will be.

As for an outlook on things though - while I would see myself as having convictions in a monotheistic schematic of the universe and something paralleling Judao-Christian diety (perhaps more on the Gnostic or Kaballah angle); my attitude on it is abstract, I try to read the most intelligent books that I can on the matter (to any Dawkinsesque atheists reading that would be a blatant oxymoron - nothing I don't know already), and I would definitely consider myself a seeker - someone who looks at the real world, analyses the real world, tries to come to the most accurate decision possible. I had a momentary lapse of being very close to pure atheism - was there begrudgingly until, strangely enough, I did see certain things happening that made the theory of us being animal, pure animal, and nothing more, or there being no other factors than a materialist would offer - the evidence wasn't fitting anymore so; back to some abstract sense that there is a higher power but that I won't likely find anything close to an accurate telling of who he/she is, what they're about, what is really meant by our existence here and individually what God's green earth its supposed to mean to us in terms of how we live our lives, how much we're supposed to intervene on other people's behalves or not so, etc.

Its really about trying to get to the nuts and bolts of the schematic and understanding - what's the 'spirit' of the lesson or the meaning of our being here? My reason for caring - I want to do as well as I can and be as on-point as I can. Why? My honest answer - I'm just like that, I derive my self esteem from doing what I think is right (for those who would answer that I by necessity have this overwhelming fear of hell - not interested, I'll be the best person I can be and if I do end up there taking that route a) then God's not my kind of guy/girl anyway and b) otherwise I am that rotten of a person, compared to a rather wily measuring stick - and by the rules of that game I deserve it - all I care about is that I'm happy with what I myself put forward and did to gratify the meaning of my own existence in positive ways and yes, including what I can do for others when I can).



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10 Oct 2009, 4:40 pm

skafather84 wrote:
The "spirit" has no empirical accounting and no one should expect any such accounting anytime soon.


.


If a term does not have a definite and discernible referent, it is meaningless.

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EverybodyLies_
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10 Oct 2009, 5:25 pm

I'm an Atheist. Personally I can see no link between Autism and Religion. "Religion" is beliefs and everyone is to their own beliefs. I've looked into religions very, very much but personally I think the idea of a 'God' is illogical. Science appeals more to me because of it's trial-and-error way. Religion stays the way it is, and it can't modernize - if it can, then it just goes very, very slowly.

I'll never believe in a religion. My great aunt was on her deathbed recently, and when she told me that she was "going to a better place, to be with the Lord" I told her quite flat-out that she wasn't. My exact words were "no, you're not". And those were my last words to her, and I don't think they were bad last words. I told her the truth, she had earnt my honest.

Imagine a world without religion; no 9/11, no Crusades, no 'honor killings', no flogging of female skin for it being shown, no suicide bombings. Religion offers hope to those who really do call out, but I'm happy in my own beliefs and they won't change unless I come to the same trial-and-error point that science goes through. I know quite firmly, however, that it won't happen.

That's just my own take.



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10 Oct 2009, 5:55 pm

skafather84 wrote:


That being said: my bit of fiction says that the spirit is an entity of fifth dimensional properties..."free will" which means ultimately in control of fate/destiny/probability in some ways. By fifth dimension, I don't mean as within the 11 described for m-theory but rather in the idea of a dimension above time; in essence, to consider the idea of multiple universes, one has to consider this means multiple probabilities which means that the instance of probabilities itself varies from universe-timeline to universe-timeline and I consider the soup of probability to be the "fifth dimension". Wrong, I know...but like I said: fiction....a book of lies, if you will.


What does "fifth dimension" mean? What are its physical properties? What laws does it conform to? What evidence supports the existence of this "fifth dimension"?

ruveyn



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10 Oct 2009, 6:01 pm

EverybodyLies_ wrote:
I'll never believe in a religion. My great aunt was on her deathbed recently, and when she told me that she was "going to a better place, to be with the Lord" I told her quite flat-out that she wasn't. My exact words were "no, you're not"..


I hate to say it but I wouldn't recommend sharing that story with too many people.



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10 Oct 2009, 6:10 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
EverybodyLies_ wrote:
I'll never believe in a religion. My great aunt was on her deathbed recently, and when she told me that she was "going to a better place, to be with the Lord" I told her quite flat-out that she wasn't. My exact words were "no, you're not"..


I hate to say it but I wouldn't recommend sharing that story with too many people.


Why? She deserves the honesty, I wasn't about to ignore nor lie to a dying woman. Chances are she couldn't hear me anyway... if she had she would have probably had a heart attack. I do miss her.



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10 Oct 2009, 6:23 pm

EverybodyLies_ wrote:
Why? She deserves the honesty, I wasn't about to ignore nor lie to a dying woman. Chances are she couldn't hear me anyway... if she had she would have probably had a heart attack. I do miss her.


Even during the time where I was 99.999% sure that there was no God, I realized that it meant life had absolutely no meaning or value greater than what we chose to give it. In that sense, while I wanted to stay clear of anyone who'd try to push religion at me - I also realized that anyone who truly believed that they would be saved, if it put them in a better psychological place, if it ennobled their experience of their own lives, and if it kept them from feeling the gaping hole inside that I was due to my refusing my own emotive illusions - life was whatever someone wanted to make of it so in that sense, believing a lie because it made a person's life more enjoyable and in ways that wouldn't dissintegrate until they died anyway - as long as they weren't shoving it down my throat I saw nothing wrong with it.

As for what you told your aunt though, most people who believe have to work hard at it, they see the same things that an atheist does about reality and draw a different conclusion. Unless this was a pre-1950 conversation your great aunt no doubt came up in a day and age where atheism was already on the hot plate of conversation anyway - as in you had nothing to say to her at that point that she hadn't already thought of in her life. These (as well as what's in the top paragraph) are reasons why if you told most NT's that, even many aspies, it would be as if you said that you punched her in the stomach or broke her jaw because she'd be dead in a few minutes and it would do no harm anyway. From what you just said in response to me it doesn't sound like you feel that way at all and, as you can see, most people would get a very different read from it than how you see yourself intending it.



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10 Oct 2009, 8:08 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Even during the time where I was 99.999% sure that there was no God, I realized that it meant life had absolutely no meaning or value greater than what we chose to give it. In that sense, while I wanted to stay clear of anyone who'd try to push religion at me - I also realized that anyone who truly believed that they would be saved, if it put them in a better psychological place, if it ennobled their experience of their own lives, and if it kept them from feeling the gaping hole inside that I was due to my refusing my own emotive illusions - life was whatever someone wanted to make of it so in that sense, believing a lie because it made a person's life more enjoyable and in ways that wouldn't dissintegrate until they died anyway - as long as they weren't shoving it down my throat I saw nothing wrong with it.

As for what you told your aunt though, most people who believe have to work hard at it, they see the same things that an atheist does about reality and draw a different conclusion. Unless this was a pre-1950 conversation your great aunt no doubt came up in a day and age where atheism was already on the hot plate of conversation anyway - as in you had nothing to say to her at that point that she hadn't already thought of in her life. These (as well as what's in the top paragraph) are reasons why if you told most NT's that, even many aspies, it would be as if you said that you punched her in the stomach or broke her jaw because she'd be dead in a few minutes and it would do no harm anyway. From what you just said in response to me it doesn't sound like you feel that way at all and, as you can see, most people would get a very different read from it than how you see yourself intending it.


I know the way I meant to type it and it was the same way as before. I told her that not to upset her, just to make her question what she did believe on the last couple of days. The conversation only took place in September of this year.



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10 Oct 2009, 8:10 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Even during the time where I was 99.999% sure that there was no God, I realized that it meant life had absolutely no meaning or value greater than what we chose to give it. In that sense, while I wanted to stay clear of anyone who'd try to push religion at me - I also realized that anyone who truly believed that they would be saved, if it put them in a better psychological place, if it ennobled their experience of their own lives, and if it kept them from feeling the gaping hole inside that I was due to my refusing my own emotive illusions - life was whatever someone wanted to make of it so in that sense, believing a lie because it made a person's life more enjoyable and in ways that wouldn't dissintegrate until they died anyway - as long as they weren't shoving it down my throat I saw nothing wrong with it.

As for what you told your aunt though, most people who believe have to work hard at it, they see the same things that an atheist does about reality and draw a different conclusion. Unless this was a pre-1950 conversation your great aunt no doubt came up in a day and age where atheism was already on the hot plate of conversation anyway - as in you had nothing to say to her at that point that she hadn't already thought of in her life. These (as well as what's in the top paragraph) are reasons why if you told most NT's that, even many aspies, it would be as if you said that you punched her in the stomach or broke her jaw because she'd be dead in a few minutes and it would do no harm anyway. From what you just said in response to me it doesn't sound like you feel that way at all and, as you can see, most people would get a very different read from it than how you see yourself intending it.


I know the way I meant to type it and it was the same way as before. I told her that not to upset her, just to make her question what she did believe on the last couple of days. The conversation only took place in September of this year.



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10 Oct 2009, 8:49 pm

EverybodyLies_ wrote:
Why? She deserves the honesty,

Why she deserved that "honesty" at that especific moment in time?

Quote:
I told her that not to upset her, just to make her question what she did believe on the last couple of days.

Why?
What would be the reason to talk to her about questioning her beliefs in her last couple of days? I don't see any real justification for that, regardless of what you believe.

Quote:
if she had she would have probably had a heart attack. I do miss her.

well, if a person who is about to die gets upset for statements like that and if you believe that they would probably get a heart attack, then wouldn't have been better to not bring the subject up or go with what she believes in? I don't see any valid reason to it, and quite frankly, I hardly take the "I was just being honest" thing as a valid justification given the circumstances.


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10 Oct 2009, 9:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
The "spirit" has no empirical accounting and no one should expect any such accounting anytime soon.


.


If a term does not have a definite and discernible referent, it is meaningless.

ruveyn


...to you, ruveyn - to you. What has meaning is different for each person; one of the great confusions of our species. Arrogance towards others often masks contempt for ourselves.


M.


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