Pattern Thinkers. Is my mind strange also for an Aspie?

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Odin
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30 Oct 2009, 8:21 am

I have both the Grandin-type visual thinking and pattern/system-based thinking. I'm an INFJ.

The left/right brain thing is so exaggerated out of proportion by BS pop psychology it's sad. the real distinction between the two is that the left hemisphere cortical neurons prefer more local, nearby connections while the right hemisphere prefers more wide-ranging connections. So if somebody says "cow" the left hemisphere would generate associations like "milk" "beef", "manure", etc. while the right hemisphere would generate associations like "barnyard smell", "staying at Aunt Lucy's farm", etc.


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31 Oct 2009, 9:59 am

As for left and right, without them I would have no conversations at all.

Just havving a dominate hand does not make the other useless.

Mostly I feel between them as they discuss which has the best mental pattern for the current situation.

I do feel like a third party. As the one who has to act I cast the tie breaking vote.



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02 Nov 2009, 1:12 am

Nightsun wrote:
[...]If I want to solve a problem I'll try to detach me from its reality and find the "mathematical solution" of it. This procedure is alien to a great percent of the population.[...]

I find greatest satisfaction when I solve a problem in its most general form. My view is that most people who are good at abstract thinking have a strong appreciation for the aesthetic beauty of it. There is beauty in the process of streamlining thought and finding the most general/universal relationships.



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05 Nov 2009, 10:34 am

I'm reading "The way I see it" by Temple Grandin and there is somethig interesting I want to share. It seems that many Asperger have a sort of "double brain" (this make me going back to the particular/whole question, explecially in Aspie quiz). Basically the test was with neuroimaging while reading a book:

- NT: highlight the brain zone for sentences.
- Autistic: highlight the brain zone for words.

- Asperger: highlight both.

From this studies (and others) seems that NT -> consider only the whole, Autistic -> attention to particulars, Aspergers -> attention to particulars while considering the whole picture.


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05 Nov 2009, 12:29 pm

I thought that was standard issue.

Two serpents coiled about a staff is very old, and I am the staff.

One for wholes, one for details, and I have to pay the rent, eat, sleep with a head crawling with snakes.

The staff is what holds it up, the third identity.

NT are beguiled by the serpent who speaks in wholes.

Autistic is beguiled by the serpent who shows the fine details.

I deny both. I rule here.

Hercules in his cradle grasped two serpents and gained power by subduing them.

In Carlos Castanada's Don Juan stories, Juan and his buddy talk to Carlos, one on each side, each charms a serpent with words it likes, and Carlos feels ripped in two as self, mind, the staff, is suddenly free of their lies.

King of the Serpents! Ruler of his own house!

Raise the Kundilini!

Each place the serpents cross is a place of power, make them give you their energy.

Tantric Fire!

Awaken!



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05 Nov 2009, 2:21 pm

Nightsun wrote:
I'm reading "The way I see it" by Temple Grandin and there is somethig interesting I want to share. It seems that many Asperger have a sort of "double brain" (this make me going back to the particular/whole question, explecially in Aspie quiz). Basically the test was with neuroimaging while reading a book:

- NT: highlight the brain zone for sentences.
- Autistic: highlight the brain zone for words.

- Asperger: highlight both.

From this studies (and others) seems that NT -> consider only the whole, Autistic -> attention to particulars, Aspergers -> attention to particulars while considering the whole picture.

I don't really think I'm all that autistic, yet what you describe as the AS thought process describes my thought process to a T. (In other ways my thought process really jives well with other people here on WP... much more so than elsewhere).

At the same time, I don't think that attention to particulars while considering the whole picture is strictly a non-NT phenomenon.


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05 Nov 2009, 2:31 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
At the same time, I don't think that attention to particulars while considering the whole picture is strictly a non-NT phenomenon.


I think it's common to a lot of NT (Intuitive-Thinkers, not Neurotypical) and expecially INTx. I just described what I've read on Grandin book. But actually I really started (both reading this forum, books and inquiring my self) that actually I'm not just mild-autistic as a sort of scroll between severe autism and NT mind, I really feel like I have "a mind controlling 2 different brain". Since I was young I always had the feeling of being a sort of pilot of my body and an observer of my brain. Inventor wrote in is usually exagerated style (I like it :P) but seems true in some way.


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06 Nov 2009, 4:42 pm

I am just here for the good times, and pictures become words that make pictures.

I find a lot in the past, when people had less distraction, and could focus on, how does this work?

Jung admitted getting all of his view from the east, I look at strange pictures from the far past and ask, what were they saying? We seen to speak the same language, over many thousand years.

Jung saw psychology written in the symbols of man. Some cultures start every day by telling their dreams.



Tollorin
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09 Nov 2009, 4:17 pm

I stumble upon this: http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/SavantNumerosity.pdf It will seem that with most people "savant skills" are overide by "pattern thinking".



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18 Nov 2009, 9:59 am

Results from www.intjforum.com

INTJ: very likely Aspie: 111/160 = 70%

seems something to me.

If we suppose (as I suppose) that the aspie quiz can grasp subclinical Aspie (the one adapted who don't seek for "help").
If we suppose that similar index hold for INTP (preliminary results show something about 50% for INTP).

Now given the total INTP+INTJ population = around 3%
Given that from WP test we see that around 50% of Aspie are INTx (so if we count the 1/100 actual percentage of autism). We can state that:

0.5% of actual DXed spectrum guys are INTx
0.5% other trait.

Using a difference it means that there is around 2.5% population who is INTx and not DXed. But at least half of them are "sub-clinical" Aspie. So we have another 1.3% of Aspie out there who are INTx. This lead to a:

1.8% of Aspie INTx
0.5% other (other people can be not DXed but here is for the sake of simplicity).

So actually the real number of Aspie is around 1/30 of the population. This also mean that there are a lot of subclinical cases and many are Introverted rationals.

Yes there are a lot of flaw in that reasoning it's not scientific but I hope that you get my point. I'm waiting to gather more data.


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18 Nov 2009, 11:27 am

^^ Yeah I think I get it.

I finally read all of Temple Grandin's book excerpts that are freely available online, to do with autism, and also much of that to do with animals. It really hits home for me, I want to get some of her books now so I can read the rest.

Before reading it, I posted that I must be a pattern thinker, but now I don't think I can be. I am very poor at both music and algebra, and most of her descriptions of visual thinking fits me. I just don't think in pictures "all the time." She does say that some people are combination of types, so maybe I'm both visual and pattern thinker. For some situations, it does seem to help me learn and understand a pattern if I can visualize it.

Visual artwork seems easier for me than just about anything else, but I don't enjoy creating it much and don't feel that I could earn a living doing it, so I do computer programming instead, which I enjoy more, even though I have to work harder at it. It seems like I start down either a visual or a pattern route when solving a particular problem, and get stuck if I try to force my brain to the other.



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18 Nov 2009, 6:34 pm

Nightsun, you are right. It is unscientific. I think the point you were trying to make is that those with subclinical AS traits probably number more than 1 in 100. However you simply have too many assumptions about all groups of people being representative samples for the 1 in 30 number to be anything but noise.

I would be interested to see more data on this matter, though I doubt it is available.


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18 Nov 2009, 8:30 pm

Out of X People, 1 in 100 has three traits that meet the DSM.

So just the ones who meet 2 traits, should be a larger number.

Those with 1 trait, an even larger number.

Those who have no traits that meet the DSM standard, just falling short, even with three tries, a larger number.

So 90% fall outside of the DSM Criteria.

That brings Broader Autism Phenotype to 10% of the population.

Psychology does not work that way, but Genetics does.

At 10%, the correct term is Sub Species.



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18 Nov 2009, 8:43 pm

Nightsun wrote:
Usually people think that I'm left-brained due to my work. The image test:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right- ... 1114603615

usually come up with right brain but sometimes I see it in the other direction (that's cool). Other only test usually told that I have 48% left, 52% right. So I'm basically at the center.


That's weird, initially, for a moment, it was anti clockwise then for all the time after it was clockwise for me :lol:
I see patterns in things. I see detail before I see the big picture in anything.
I have often been accused of focussing on the small stuff.
As to my thoughts, I don't know. Sometimes, I see vivid pictures, The rest of the time, I see nothing at all. Half the time, I can't even catch my thoughts. And I was hopeless at maths after the age of 11. I just cannot do it to save my life. It is another language to me, but one I cannot learn.



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19 Nov 2009, 11:49 am

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Nightsun, you are right. It is unscientific. I think the point you were trying to make is that those with subclinical AS traits probably number more than 1 in 100. However you simply have too many assumptions about all groups of people being representative samples for the 1 in 30 number to be anything but noise.

I would be interested to see more data on this matter, though I doubt it is available.


I'm preparing something for RDOS to have more specific datas. The data I reported was just some data and some consideration, nothing scientific. But I think it's very "plausible" let's say that I'm using more the "N" than the "T" in my INTJ profile :P, because usually is how my mind work: find the solution then justify it.

The idea is the following:
- autistic gene should give an overall increase in society performance otherwise they should have disappeared already (every non-casual disease give other advantages).
- the core of autistic propierties like OCD / social problem / systemizing / lack of empathy should be common to a greater majority of people don't labeled autistic (this is the 1 out of 30 I tossed from thin air).
- so probably there must be not a gene problem but a gene-gene interaction, gene-environment interaction that make the problem.
- the great majority of autistic-genetic people must be not only fine but work better than the average guy.
- We must divide what kind of behavioral problem are common and wich one are not (if we can find any).

I know it's not well wrote, I'll try to gather the needed data and give it a more scientific approach (after all I'm a scientist :P ).


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