Trying to find that fine line between helping and enabling.

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I try to help, and we have our IEP meeting come up. I don't know what he needs and what I am getting manipulated into thinking he needs. grrrr. Any tips for finding that line?

uh i just erased my rant about our iep but short answer to your question my goal is to prepare my son so he can function in society in whatever way he wants to and be happy. this means obviosly he needs to be able to attend school, get passing grades and obey the law. with that said, i mean if he is content and happy by playing by himself, it works for me.

My son can be bribed into doing things he can do but doesn't want to do, but bribery won't work for things he really cannot do. He'll just get more depressed by the offer, because he'll want the bribe but be unable to get to it.

There are some other ways of telling, of course, but that may be the one most likely to apply to a different child.

oh i see, your child is manipulative... if he can do it so well, are you sure that he has as?

Every time I venture into this area, I remember why I avoid it.

The thing is, he pretty much just doesn't care. He wants everyone to do everything for him. He has no goal because, as he said the other day, "I don't have any goals because I always fail at them."

I'm trying to figure out if it is difficult for him to write, or he just doesn't like it and sees no point. I'm trying to get him to learn to type because that is what he will be using after middle school really anyhow. I was toying with the idea of an alpha smart, but don't think he'll be interested in learning to type. As for passing school, he has assignments and he just decides that he doesn't want to do it, so he doesn't. It is worth sitting there and staring at his homework for 3 hours to him to not do it.

We were getting his homework done with me writing what he told me to write down. For the multiple choice he doesn't feel like speaking, so he might sign a - d to tell me which to circle. I don't know if he just dislikes writing or if it is difficult.

I thought that maybe it was physically difficult, but every once in a while he has a "good" day, productivity wise, and handwrites a couple pages of stuff with no complaining and a smile on his face.

At school they are SOMETIMES able to get him to do his work with a reward system where he gets stars to turn in for something from a prize box. As soon as he has to actually try for it, he decides he just doesn't care anymore. They are letting him do different evaluations, even verbal ones to get what he knows about the subjects in the grade book. His homework is already reduced. One day he'll come home and he does ALL his homework in 5 minutes, but most days he just complains for 45 minutes, is seriously distractable and only spends about 2 minute actually putting his work down. Those two minutes take my constant prodding and reminding of "ok, what do we do next, here?" We are to only work on homework for one hour, if it looks like it is going over then we are to just stop where we are and write a note saying we tried. I think he figured this out and realized that in order to get out of his homework he only has to sit there WITH his homework for one hour then he can be done with it. It is worth losing his 1/2 hour before bed to not do his work, and his video gaming privileges.

All he needs to do to get these things is TRY.

At school they have started a he gets to do 4 problems, then someone will write the answers he dictates for the next 4, and taking turns. It works some days. I am trying this idea at home as well, to try to keep things constant between the two and I don't want to do more work for him than he needs. I just don't know where that line is between being a help and doing more harm in the long run by making him more dependent on others.

Um... I'm sorry, I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but I will answer it honestly.

He has actually told me after something is over that he really could have done something, but he wanted me to do it. (he'll have a little mischievous grin on his face when he tells me stuff like this.) As far as I can tell he just doesn't really want to try, so he tries to get someone else to do it, and therein lies the issue. Because of this, I can't really tell when he is doing this or when he really does need the help. Some times I can say for sure he really does need this, other times it is questionable.

If I do his every whim where will that get him when he gets older? If he is dependent on me to do things he very well could then in the end he will start to depend more and more on others. He is high functioning and capable of being what he wants when he grows up. He might be regarded as odd, but I'm sure he will find his niche in life.

My child has been diagnosed by a neurologist, and then as a check after it was questioned, done an ADOS assessment with a professional who wrote that it was highly likely.

claire333: My question offends you?

i am editing this one since i saw your reply.
if he can write on some occasions that means that he can but he won't. and if he can write and read that means he can do his homework (even if he get it wrong).

is there anyone else that he will listen more (dad, grandparent, friend, or particular teacher)?
in addition to establishing more authority you may want to try to work on finishing at least one of the asignments regardless how long does it take. and than ramp up slowly. this would help him realize that he CAN finish things. is he a perfectionist? is that why he thinks that he always fails?

Last edited by AnotherOne on 22 Oct 2009, 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

My apologies. Claire is latin for clear, which I very seldom am. Nothing you said at all.

Hello there.

I am afraid I dont have a whole lot of advice in this area other then to state a very simple fact. If your child doesn't see any interest or purpose in doing something, he wont want to do it. If he sees it as a worthwhile and useful goal, then he will pursue it, even if it is difficult. So, I have to ask, does your son see doing the work as useful and productive?

And (assuming the answer is no), why does he feel this way. I will have to be honest and say that many things asked of a young child in school are useless and unproductive, and trying to convince him otherwise wont work well. But, if you can explain things in a way which shows their use, he may be more interested in trying.

Before I give any more detailed advice, I have some request for clarifications:

1. Is it all subjects that he has problems with? Or is there some subjects that he does fine consistently?

2. Does this work avoidance spread over into other areas besides school, or is it just school?

3. Does your child seem to be avoiding the work due mostly to frustration, anxiety, or boredom? (it's fine if you don't know).

4. Do you notice any other abnormalities which might make you think there is something other then AS going on? I only ask this because I recently read an article about something called PDA, which seems to accurately describe your difficulties, and is often misdiagnosed as autism. Try taking a look here and seeing if it makes more sense then perhaps AS:

http://www.pdacontact.org.uk/frames/index.html

I would love to give more advice, but alas I dont know the situation or your child well enough to be useful.

AS people can be very very manipulative, I can make you sure

i wasn't aware of this. thanks.

That really depends on their experiences and what they have "learned" from the world around them. I believe, anyway.

Detren, I haven't heard anything in your writing that indicates manipulation beyond normal childhood behavior. I have an appointment but I'd like to try to get into some of your concerns. I have to say, this is probably one of the most difficult determinations any parent makes, and it is definitely a tricky topic. I'll be back when I have more time.

Handwriting can be difficult for somebody with an ASD, and lets be honest folks, beyond signing credit card receipts and reading ones own notes, it doesn't have much use in adult society.

My advice is if he has problems with handwriting, pushing a computer is not a bad idea. You have to get your head out of the "enabling/helping" ideas. If it gets the work done and is a suitable work around its helping, and franly good computer skills outweigh good handwriting any day of the week.

He probably dislikes writing because it is more difficult, if he is not having problems answering the questions, but is having problems writing it down then its the difficulty. Fine motor skills issues are known for kids with ASD, this includes handwriting. If you think a computer can address this, it is not enabling him, rather it is a suitable work around that the district should include in his IEP. In fact the very focus on handwriting in school is a bit backwards, using a computer and good typing skills are much more important as an adult, than good handwriting. Its a good example how antiquated ideas of education are still a big part of our current education system.

Also don't make assumptions about what will work and will not work. The typing things may be a good idea, he may have an interest because computers can offer an avenue of interest for a child with ASD, an avenue of communication, and a way to overcome some educational deficits. Alot of his discouragement may come from the fact he struggles with handwriting. Computers have been a big avenue for communication for folks with ASD, including some folks with moderate-to-severe Autism. Opening him up to that possibility is not a bad thing.

Tracker:
Before I give any more detailed advice, I have some request for clarifications:

1. Is it all subjects that he has problems with? Or is there some subjects that he does fine consistently?

Pretty much all subjects. Today, he had a spelling assignment where he had to write a poem using 10 or his spelling words, and 10 sentences using a spelling word each. He whipped through it in 10 minutes. It only took 10 minutes because he kept talking to his brother or me about stuff between sentences. Some days it takes us about 45 minutes to get through a multiple choice spelling assignment with me writing for him. He does better in math and spelling, but work wise it just depends on his mood that day. Social studies and history (unless it is about Abraham Lincoln) is a no go.

2. Does this work avoidance spread over into other areas besides school, or is it just school?

It seems to be everywhere. I have a feeling that most of it is that he is plain overwhelmed. It does help to cover up the parts that he isn’t working on, but not much. He has been on stimulants before, but we still had no consistency, he did better overall, but no consistency.

3. Does your child seem to be avoiding the work due mostly to frustration, anxiety, or boredom? (it's fine if you don't know).

Most likely all three. We have had to put him on anti-anxiety medication (anti-depressants, really, but we are using them for the anxiety). Frustration because he doesn’t know the stuff because he didn’t find it interesting enough to learn in the first place.

4. Do you notice any other abnormalities which might make you think there is something other then AS going on? I only ask this because I recently read an article about something called PDA, which seems to accurately describe your difficulties, and is often misdiagnosed as autism. Try taking a look here and seeing if it makes more sense then perhaps AS

The anxiety, and he has some pretty bad ADHD that kicks up an extra notch on some days. We were driving down the road, almost home, and he forgot the car was moving and tried to get out. It even freaked him out. I have a new car now, and he sits in the back drivers side (that is HIS spot), it’s an extended SUV so he doesn’t have a door, I’m very happy with that arrangement. When the ADHD acts up it might take him 20 minutes to put his shoes on. On average it takes about 3 – 5 prompts to get his shoes on his feet. That link doesn’t sound like him. He very rarely makes eye contact and when he does he is in a very goofy mood and feels like being silly. He will get right in your face, stare you in the eye and get a really goofy grin on his face, then start cracking up. He’s not good with imaginative play and the role playing. He likes yugioh cards (and will talk about yugioh for a good long while),legos and bionicles and on rare occasions he plays “fighting” or animals with his brothers. He doesn’t get the age gap thing. We were at church the other day and there was a little girl. She is just starting to crawl well. He gets down on the floor and barks at her and she tries to climb up him, he was totally confused. I told him, “she’s not pretending to be a dog, she just doesn’t know how to walk yet, so she is crawling to get around.” He said, “oh….” Then he got up and stared at her for a couple minutes and decided he was done with her. Haha

Starygrrl:

It’s not hand writing that is the issue, per se. I was even doing the writing for him 80 percent of the time. He loves the computer, but only likes to play yahoo free games or the SIMS (only on build mode). Thing is, I doubt he has any interest in learning to type. His teacher don’t care what his handwriting looks like as long as his answers are semi-legible. I’d LOVE for him to want to learn to type. I’ve offered to buy him a game that teaches you to type while you play it and you don’t really even know it, he was very not interested. That was about a year ago though.

DW_a_mom:

I know it sounds like normal every day kid stuff, but he doesn’t respond to the “normal” everyday parent fixes for normal every day kid stuff.

I think a big part of it all is that there is a lot of “rush” recently, but even before we had all the running around and things to do he did the exact same thing. That was before Tae Kwon Do and Wednesday and Fridays with their dad. So, I don’t think it’s really that.

The anxiety has kick up a notch recently (seems to match about the time when their father moved about an hour away). He has severe separation anxiety for/from? Me. He would rather sit in my lap instead of do Tae Kwon Do, but I am only 20 feet away. I’ve told him that he needs a better reason that than to quit Tae Kwon Do.

I had a talk with him last night about “trying,” we’ll see how that ends up. I told him that what I need from him, is to try. That I don’t need things to be perfect, but I want to see that he is trying his hardest. Just recently, he has started trying to get out of Tae Kwon Do, as well. He has a blast while he is in there, he laughs and plays the games, and does the warm-ups and semi-practices his kicks with the others, but as soon as he realizes comes out he starts complaining about how he wants to quit. I told him that he is in there to learn focus, and that is he is showing me that he is trying his hardest to do his best at focus and learning there and doing the best he can, then you’ll show me that you are ready to quit.

I seriously have no clue here. There is a lady from the MRDD coming in to observe him in class (she works with parents and schools to get what the children needs with an IEP, that is a big part of her job.) Hopefully she can see things that I would think of, as well. I had a meeting his teachers, his tutor, and the school psychologist last week. I am supposed to ask the neurologist for tips to keep him consistent. Haha. Like I haven’t been trying to get him “consistent” for 8 of his 9 years?

I don’t know, I just kind of feel stuck. He’s not performing even close to what he is capable and he doesn’t grasp that what he does now has an impact on what he does later. It’s all alien to him, he has no “bigger picture.” Therefore, he just doesn’t care, because, to him, it doesn’t matter.

Is he in fourth grade? That was a pretty crucial period with my son, when I was so worried about stress and coping skills that I was pushing and pushing for a half way decent counseling service. We were eventually able to get him into a group situation that was working mostly on anger management, but they knew that my son's needs were a little different and worked with him on that, as well. I don't really know what they did in that group, but my son "graduated" with a new perspective on homework and new ideas on how to tackle his own problems.

One thing we did with homework was to have a sign out ability. What you tell the child is that if he can focus and stay on task for X minutes, it does not matter what he hasn't completed, you will sign it off as done. There were days not even that could get my son to focus, but most days it took away quite a few of the battles. He thinks the homework is going to take hours because there is so much of it? Well, it won't, because no matter how much is done he gets out at X minutes. But he has to sit down and stay on task. It really teaches them to sit down and get on task. The days it doesn't work ... something more is going on, and you talk until you find a clue as to what that might be. It might remain a mystery, but progress happens. This is a really good age to do homework by time instead of by task, and set some better work habits.

I think that easy days and hard days, when the skills are there and not there, is normal at this age and with AS. I can't explain it, but we did experience it. We still do, but not as dramatically as in the late primary years.

I once wrote on this board that the default position has to be that your child's impairment is real when he says it is real. I stand by that. But, that doesn't mean we don't nudge ...

With the issue of writing v. dictating, I think the kids get tired at this age. We emphasized the development of concepts, and the reading skills, and accommodated on the writing, telling him that by middle school he was going to have to type. Not all kids have the hand size to type at age nine, so it can be a non-starter to try. My son seemed ready, finally, when he hit middle school and it was a little late as far as the work he needed to get done but that is when he finally pushed himself on it, and when the school gave him an Alphasmart.

As my son's resource teacher told us years ago, writing is a multi-task function. There are many pieces that have to come together. For some reason, bringing it all together is much, much harder for AS kids, and that needs to be allowed for. In fact, I would say my son still can't bring all the pieces together, but we have a work-around in place. He types in his own version of short hand, and then goes back to edit into acceptable grammar and spelling. He can't do either of those fast enough to keep pace with the ideas in his head, so it makes sense to get the ideas down however he can first. Still, it is a very slow and tedious process, and he still balks at the second step, which is editing, and that is the skill we are currently emphasizing in seventh grade.

You can't risk losing the war to the battle, and the war is for your child to believe he can succeed and to want to be engaged with learning. If you have to pander a little while to get there, I say do it. I've found that when I give in with my AS son, he tends to develop security, and that makes him more ready to move on. But there are times that I tell him no, that I know he can do it, and that I expect him to do it as a result. He'll usually give in then, but sometimes he will insist that he really can't, in which case we may end up meeting in the middle. It is very day by day and case by case.

You'll be encouraged to know that boys seem to make an amazing maturity leap between fifth and sixth grades. So many of my worries kind of vanished, because my son just grew up. There is no other term for it. New challenges set in, of course, but kids really do mature all on their own. Funny thing, that is.