Should I Seek Diagnosis?

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Ok I am going be open to the idea that you truly are oblivious to what I am actually saying.

been wondering though..



I don't know what DSM you are reading because neither of the things I mentioned are in the AS DSM at all, here take a look...

AS DSM:

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

* marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
* failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
* lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
* lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

* encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity of focus
* apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
* stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
* persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language e.g., single words used by age two years, communicative phrases used by age three years).

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

F. Criteria are not met for another specific pervasive developmental disorder or schizophrenia.


..

no mention of approaching strangers, yet you claimed that was SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED in the DSM because it was such a common trait. where is it?? there's no mention of sensory issues of any sort, tactile or otherwise. so...um...how is the DSM proving me wrong?

and here we have the DSM for RAD:

Diagnostic Criteria for 313.89 Reactive Attachment Disorder of Infancy or Early Childhood
A. Markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate social relatedness in most contexts, beginning before age 5, as evidenced by either (1) or (2):

1. Persistent failure to initiate or respond in a developmentally appropriate fashion to most social interactions, as manifested by excessively inhibited, hypervigilant, or highly ambivalent and contradictory responses (e.g.: the child may respond to caregivers with a mixture of approach, avoidance, and resistance to comforting; or may exhibit a frozen watchfulness);

2. Diffuse attachments as manifested by indiscriminate socialbility with marked inability to exhibit appropriate selective attachments (e.g.: the child may exhibit excessive familiarity with relative strangers or lack selectivity in choice of attachment figures.)

B. The disturbance in Criterion A is not accounted for solely by developmental delay (as in Mental Retardation) and does not meet criteria for a Pervasive Developmental Disorder;

C. Pathogenic care as evidenced by at least one of the following:

1. Persistent disregard of the child's basic emotional needs for comfort, stimulation, and affection;

2. Persistent disregard of the child's basic physical needs;

3. Repeated changes of primary caregiver that prevent formation of stable attachments (e.g.: frequent changes in foster care);

D. There is a presumption that the care in Criterion C is responsible for the disturbed behavior in Criterion A (e.g.: the disturbances in Criterion A began following the pathogenic care in Criterion C);

E. Inhibited vs. Disinhibited Type

1. Inhibited Type: If Criterion A1 predominates in the clinical relationship

2. Disinhibited Type: If Criterion A2 predominates in the clinical relationship.

..

I have made bold the part which specifically states the issue with approaching strangers.

Like the AS DSM, there is no mention of sensory issues, but just like AS we know that there are sensory issues, but unlike you seem to enjoy imagining, that is not what I am talking about.

I was referring to the SPECIFIC EXAMPLE of a child not reacting appropriately to physical injury (not 'sensory issues' as a whole). Something I've tried to make clear for you, but you always conveniently ignore so you can keep battling me! So with that, you have been arguing with yourself.

it is most likely because an article came out about it not long ago.

but they are very similar. do a search on the internet for 'aspergers VS RAD' and you will see many stories of miss diagnosis of these 2 disorders. there is an entire yahoo group dedicated to it.

as for the to conditions not being similar, well they very similar. they have huge impairment of social interaction and terrible eye contact. here:


Superficially engaging and charming child.

Indiscriminately affectionate with strangers.

Destructive of self, others, things.

Experiences development al lags.

Will not make eye contact.

Not cuddly with parents.

Cruel to animals, siblings.

Lacks cause and effect thinking.
Has poor peer relations.

Is inappropriately demanding or clingy.

Engages in stealing, lying.

Lacks a conscience.

Section II – Number 223 Page 3 of 8 Reviewed: March 2007

Engages in persistent nonsense questions or incessant chatter.

Has poor impulse control. Has abnormal speech patterns.

Fights for control over everything.

Engages in gorging on food.

Has a preoccupation with fire, blood or gore.

Encopresis or enuresis

9. Further symptoms of insecure attachment in children and adults are as follows:
SYMPTOMS OF INSECURE ATTACHMENT
IN CHILDREN…
• superficially charming or phony
• manipulative
• affectionate to strangers
• lack of eye contact
• aggressive behavior
• hyper-vigilant
• resistant to parental affection
• steals, lies, hoards food
• persistent nonsense questions and incessant chatter
• oppositional, fights for control over everything, demanding
• impulsive and inattentive
• lack of cause and effect thinking
• preoccupied with fire, blood, violence
• cruelty to people/animals
• destruction of property
• lack of or little remorse or empathy
• poor mood regulation
• poor social skills/peer relationships
• separation anxiety


IN ADULTS…

• controlling/manipulative
• impulsive
• socially inappropriate behavior
• seductive/provocative behaviors
• inappropriate anger
• unrealistic demands/expectations
• unstable moods
• unstable relationships
• self-mutilating behaviors
• shallow/vain
• lack of empathy or remorse
• self-importance
• grandiose fantasies
• feelings of entitlement or arrogance
• feelings of being special/unique

..

i'm sure you can see for yourself how many traits relate to autism without me having to point them out to you.

Yes

I am glad you posted that as I can unequivocally state that it is most definitely not me, interesting though it is.

88BK:
When I refer to the DSM in my earlier comments, I am referring to DSM IV and DSM IV TR. The checklist you have reproduced constitutes a sub section of the DSM’s entry for Asperger Syndrome. I have no idea why you thought it might constitute the entire entry.

I understand that. What I do not understand is how you fail to understand that this is precisely what I too am referring to. Over sensitivity and under sensitivity (specifically including failures to manifest normal reactions to usually painful stimulus) to various sensory stimulus are widely known traits that occur in the course of Asperger Syndrome and are considered to be explained by Asperger Syndrome when occuring in the course of Asperger Syndrome. That to me constitutes a trait of Aserperger Syndrome. And just to be clear, I am referring specifically to a failure to manifest normal responses to usually painful stimulus. Hopefully I will not need to repeat as much for your benefit again.

I think I forgot to mention in my list of traits... I hate conflict
Also, I am mildly insulted , having read the traits of RAD, that someone would even bring it up in relation to me, based on the traits/issues I listed in my original post. I can honestly see next to no relation. All of the traits I listed were done after I had read the literature, and thought back to my childhood, and to my current self and made a list ready for when I sought someone to diagnose me. There is nothing there that I didnt consider relevant after having painstakingly gone through various tomes on Aspergers to see what does and doesn't fit in myself.

As already stated, my approached to strangers were not affectionate. They were conversational. I talked to adults, in an adult way, as a young child. I was more outgoing back then, and found talking to adults interesting and easier than my peer group.

I cried when I got sick. I was not immune to all types of pain. I would imagine that when I got up after falling as a child, I was more interested in getting back to what I was doing than in standing crying about it. I don't know. But since I was sensitive to noise, the feeling of clothing and smells, I am fairy sure it was a part of general sensory issues. I certainly reacted if I stubbed my toe.

But yes, next to nothing in the lists of RAD traits fit me, and some of the traits there even horrify me slightly...an interest in blood, gore, violence... lack of conscience...make me think of sociopathy too.

While I have an acute sense of conscience and what is right and wrong, and an aversion to violence, gore and aggression.

My personal view is that I have a combination of mild AS/ASD combined with PTSD from the sexual abuse I suffered as an older child.
But not this RAD. The shoe...does not fit...so to speak. And I am very glad it doesn't, reading through some of those traits.

Last edited by Graelwyn on 16 Nov 2009, 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

2 reasons.

a) that is what the majority of people read when they read the DSMs and it is what people have access to and it lists the most common/integral traits/diagnostic criteria.

b) i wanted to make a point that it IS specifically listed in the RAD criteria (every version).

thought i still don't think it is specifically mentioned at all in any version of the DSM. i'll have to re-read. feel free to provide a link.


I understand that. What I do not understand is how you fail to understand that this is precisely what I too am referring to. Over sensitivity and under sensitivity (specifically including failures to manifest normal reactions to usually painful stimulus) to various sensory stimulus are widely known traits that occur in the course of Asperger Syndrome and are considered to be explained by Asperger Syndrome when occuring in the course of Asperger Syndrome. That to me constitutes a trait of Aserperger Syndrome. And just to be clear, I am referring specifically to a failure to manifest normal responses to usually painful stimulus. Hopefully I will not need to repeat as much for your benefit again.[/quote]

yes of ASPERGERS, not of RAD, which is what i'm talking about. traits specific to RAD, these other sensory issues do not come into it AT ALL, it is just the physical stimulus that applies. it is different to AS sensory issues which can be caused by numberous external factors, like you keep saying. when people with AS have a sensory issue relating to pain, it is for a different reason than those that have RAD. with the AS child, the sensory issue/negative reaction could arise from numerous types of stimulus not just pain. with the RAD kids, it is specifically pain....that is not the same. you are talking about something different than me.

Yes there are some traits that relate to autism but any of the personality disorders such as narcissism or sociopathy can also have these traits. This doesnt mean an autistic is a narcisisst or a sociopath just because both have certain behaviours.

I just watched a video on you tube with a young girl, it is so obvious she is not autistic but an emotionally damaged NT child. She looks straight at the psychologist, displays appropriate body language and engages emotionally with him, while speaking of her desire to stab her brother with a knife. I wont post the video because of the graphic talk of her sexual abuse in the video, but she is clearly not autistic, she doesnt have the social impairments ASD children have.

I remember what I was like as a child and even after her horrific abuse that little girl has 10 times the social understanding I had. The 2 other documentaries were on two brothers who were rescued from an abusive family, and twin romanian girls who were adopted from an orphanage. It is obvious that the children engaged normally in regards to body language, eye contact and social give and take, yet had disturbed patterns in their relationships.

IMO the presentation of an AS child and one of these children is very very different. Even the "active but odd" AS child would be very different as they would display an inappropriate understanding of the social situation, and that is not what is seen with this child in the you tube. In fact she displayed extraordinary insight into her behavior in some respects, she admitted her feelings about wanting to stab her brother but she wasnt really sure why she was feeling it. She spoke of her abuse in an articulate way. AS children sound like they are talking out the other end of a telescope, well at least I did.

seems odd that so many children have been misdiagnosed as RAD when they are actually AS and vice versa then. even online, honestly, search aspergers VS RAD or RAD vs aspergers if you don't believe me!

^ if that is true it very likely raises questions about the competence of professionals who would make that mistake, because the disorders are very different.

Which does not require either claiming that characteristic traits of Asperger Syndrome are not such, nor claims that things referred to_in the DSM entry for this condition are not in that entry.

You need not think you can now fool anyone into believing you have ever read the full DSM entry for this condition. Your earlier comments make it very clear that you have not done so and did believe the checklist sub section constituted the whole.

The DSM most certainly mentions the active but odd, often inappropriate and one sided socially gregarious approach that this constitutes an example of. It may even specifically mention the failure to prefer age peers (in social approaches/social engagement) although I cannot recall if this is so off the top of my head.

Once again, describing traits that occur in RAD does not require or entail false claims that traits are not common in or characteristic of Asperger Syndrome. You specifically claimed these traits were not common and not characteristic of AS. Claiming they occur in RAD, or making any claim about RAD does not require or explain your comments asserting that these traits are not common in or characteristic of AS, and so rattling on about them occurring in RAD will not make your earlier assertion any less inaccurate; it merely serves to indicate that you may have issues with admitting being wrong about something.

I cannot find the reference in the DSM online at the moment, only the version posted here earlier, but I did find this.

http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2255.shtml

haha, oh dear, how wrong you are! not only have i read it, but i OWN it! and when i get home (2 days 6 hours) i will be re-reading it to check up on your claims, i can't remember much about it right now.

but feel free to keep pretending in the meantime that when people talk in general about the DSM they are talking about anything but what i posted. you should know very well that the majority of people do not have access to the DSM in it's entirety.


The DSM most certainly mentions the active but odd, often inappropriate and one sided socially gregarious approach that this constitutes an example of. It may even specifically mention the failure to prefer age peers (in social approaches/social engagement) although I cannot recall if this is so off the top of my head.
[/quote]

no no no, that's not what i'm after. active, odd, gregarious...no no no. i want something that says specifically that they approach strangers, that is what i have been talking about this entire time, that specific event. don't try and twist and turn things so they fit for you. and i don't care about age group either. i want something in the DSM that says "kids with AS approach strangers", just like it does in the RAD DSM. which i was nice enough to provide for you. i'll tell ya what, you don't even have to link me, just give me a direct quote from the DSM, i'll take your word for it, and double check when i get home!


Once again, describing traits that occur in RAD does not require or entail false claims that traits are not common in or characteristic of Asperger Syndrome. You specifically claimed these traits were not common and not characteristic of AS. Claiming they occur in RAD, or making any claim about RAD does not require or explain your comments asserting that these traits are not common in or characteristic of AS, and so rattling on about them occurring in RAD will not make your earlier assertion any less inaccurate; it merely serves to indicate that you may have issues with admitting being wrong about something.[/quote]

so it is common for kids with AS to experience just that one lone sensory issue with the absence of all others? that typically AS kids have inappropriate reactions to pain stimulus but no other?? so if an AS child has an inappropriate reaction to pain stimulus, they 100% WILL NOT have any other sensory issues? your answer should be yes to all, as that is essentially what you are saying. and if it is not yes, then it must be true that this specific sensory issue, in the context of which i am discussing it, is specific to RAD. (and do try your best not to completely ignore context this time, i know you enjoy it, but it makes you seem a tad daft, which i'm sure you are not!)

Well so you say, and for all I know I was grossly overestimating you when I concluded that it was unlikely you were so stupid that you could have seen the entry (much less read it) and have yet still have mistaken the check list subsection for being the entire entry as you must have done to have written the comments in your earlier post where you re produce that checklist.

I apologise if I have overestimated you and will endeavour to not do so in the future.

None of which explains why someone claiming to be familiar with that entry would make the comments you made. You had no cause to assume I would not be familiar with the entry proper, nor that I was not referring to the full text description rather than the meagre checklist subsection, and certainly no reason to claim that if something is not in that checklist that this would mean it is not in the DSM entry, as your earlier comments clearly purport.

I claimed the DSM refers the traits/characteristics, I did not claim that the DSM gives the exact same specific example described by Graelwyn. It is ludicrous to expect the DSM to give every possible example of every possible manifestation of the broader traits/characteristics it describes.

I do not need you tell me what I am referring to evidently, as I am a better judge of this than you, and I am not in the habit of trying to re interpret what I said to mean something else if I am caught out being wrong about some matter of fact or other.

Oh, are you one of those people who go about accusing those you are in disagreement with of employing the very tactics that you yourself use?

If that is what you really want, perhaps you should take this up with APA. I do not control what goes in the DSM, so there is no point complaining to me. The fact is the DSM does refer to these traits, although off the top of my head, whether they happen to give a paint by numbers description sufficient for you to link what the DSM states to the kind of behavioral example Graelwyn gave, I cannot recall. It is not reasonable to expect as much since the DSM is written for people who can make such links on the basis of their wider expertise, and not for any old lay person that gets into their head that they can read the DSM check list for Asperger Syndrome and know everything worth knowing about Asperger Syndrome.

I have no idea why you think this was being nice to me. I made no comment on what might be entailed in RAD, and none such is of any relevance to the fact that the behaviours Graelwyn described and that you claimed are not common in Asperger Syndrome or characteristic of it, are in fact common in Asperger Syndrome, and are in fact characteristic of it, and are in fact referred to the DSM entry for Asperger Syndrome.


You want me to provide you with a link to a large chunk of text from a copyright protected publication? Why do you think APA would allow that to be plausible?

Is that what Graelwyn claimed because I do not see such a claim anywhere in the text where she wrote about the trait that you argued is not characteristic of Asperger Syndrome, and since then she has confirmed that she did experience other sensory issues? If you assumed things Graelwyn did not claim (such that there were no other sensory issues in her case) that is your assumption, and your error, not mine.


Complete and utter rubbish. For your benefit (since you seem unable to follow this discussion without assistance) Graelwyn claimed she had a particular trait, all this hogwash about having no other sensory issue was not claimed by her, and did not appear as qualifying commentary alongside your claim that the traits Graelwyn described do not occur in Asperger Syndrome. Evidently, since then Graelwyn has confirmed that just like me, she is referring to a trait that occurred in the context of wider sensory issues. She was never talking about the trait you now claim to have been talking about when you stated what she described is not characteristic of Asperger Syndrome. Perhaps what you erroneously assumed she was describing is not a characteristic of Asperger Syndrome, but what she actually described is.

but that's not the dsm is it. i never said ASD kids don't also do this, i said it is less common in kids with AS than it is with kids with RAD.

same with pain issues, i just said they were less common, never claimed they were non-existent in AS.

just in RAD they are more key symptoms where as in AS they are more minor 'tells'.

i mean the ENTIRE reason i pointed out these traits was because they occur in BOTH asperger's and RAD! why would i bother randomly pointing out traits that are just features of one disorder??

--

to pandd.

i give up. you have no interest in anything except being right, or making yourself feel intelligent. you have nothing, NOTHING of substance to offer. you do nothing but argue, you do no nothing but oppose and you offer no real justification for this, the only logical conclusion is that you enjoy this style of conversation. i mean you start nonsensical debates all the time! you have a serious issue with context. i'd go as far as to question your place on the spectrum considering how crafty you can be with words, that apology you gave me in your last post, know the one that was actually a poorly disguised insult? very NT of you that sort of manipulation and your whole grasp and ability to twist words to make yourself seem credible, you're very good at choosing what to respond to and what not. you only respond to things you have an answer for, anything else, well you pretend like it was never said. oh unless you suddenly decide that's not what you were actually talking about after all. very NT! i find you tiresome not only when speaking to you, but also when just reading your posts to others, it hurts my head trying to get around all your craftiness. and no, it is not a case of my being to unintelligent to understand such a wise being as you, quite the opposite actually, it's like some of the arguments you put forth are so inane and ludicrous my brain can't sink to a level
that far outside of reality to comprehend the nonsense. if you think people can't see through this, you're kidding yourself.

god i hope this forum has an ignore button!!

http://www.awares.org/static_docs/about ... cSection=3

About Active But Odd, it is part of Lorna Wing's research in 1979. Her research and papers are studied and used widely amongst ASD professionals.

And if you do a search you will find many threads about ASD people's unusual reactions to pain, such as this one:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt43843.html