Loosening hubby's Gotta Be Normal fixation - any ideas?

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I am afraid many of the things I have tried to do to help my husband have not had a helpful effect at all, rather on the contrary. Before I had heard about Asperger Syndrome, I had several times talked to him about how good life developments I have gotten with the help of shrinks and therapy and tried to motivate him, but if anything this enthusiasm of mine has seemingly made him less likely to speak positively about mental health professionals, diagnoses or medications. The words he has used, as far as I can remember, are to this general effect:

* it was OK for me (his wife) to do therapy and get a spectrum diagnosis (ADHD) and go on medication (Ritalin), but he does not need to or want to try out the diagnosis route
* he does not like labels on people / he does not believe in labeling people, it simplifies reality too much and/or is not helpful (this despite that my label has given me the legal right to get extra assistance and/or extra time in exams, which is a key to that I will soon graduate)
* he only asked for help when I walked out on him this summer, because he hurt so much that there was absolutely no other alternative (the good news is that he is really motivated for his individual counseling and wants to continue it, and he seems quite motivated for our couple's counseling as well)

When he is stressed, he often claims that I try to "dominate" him with my ADHD and/or my feelings - especially if I cry, and that I want him to do exactly as I say, that i don't want him to have free will. This seems to be a "standard near-meltdown" response, highly defensive, when it does not make sense to him why I am asking him to do something (differently).

If I speak about my observations of any of his non-NT behaviors, even though I really try to present them as neutral observations, that necessarily means (according to him) that I am criticizing him, that he is flawed or bad. He just does not seem to take in that I am at least as quirky as he is, though in different ways, and I *LIKE* being different and others being different from me (sameness would be deadly dull, IMHO) - besides, if I did not like being different, I could not like myself much at all, which would be a real bummer.

He seems to forget a lot I have told him about my attitudes since childhood and youth, even though I've told these things several times and they are directly relevant to accepting differences, i.e. that the likelihood of me running screaming away if he gets diagnosed with something "mental" is quite low.
* my best friend in kindergarten was seven when I was four, she had CP, grave motor and speech impairments and I *loved* her with all my heart. We were *best*friends*, ferchrissake!
* my first teacher of sign language was deaf-blind and in a wheelchair. I met her when I was about 12, and I've never seen anyone as less abled since, only differently abled. if she could teach me a new language, pretty much anyone can do pretty much anything, given enough resources and time - and an iron will
* I see little problems in if either of our kids gets a spectrum diagnosis at some point - if used well, a diagnosis can help quite a lot, especially in formal studies. We seem to disagree about this, though, but he mostly shuts down if the discussion even approaches this area, so it is a bit difficult to be sure

It's as if he feels that mental health related help is OK for everyone and anyone else, but not for him (and possibly not his kids). As if asking for help, any help, was a mortal sin or something, if he does it.

Has anyone observed or heard/read about positive developments in attitudes towards diagnosis, professionals etc. starting from a similar situation? How did such developments happen?

Frustrated, tired and worried Athena

PS: I'm afraid that if he knew that I am posting here on WP, he would have a major meltdown and claim that he cannot trust me anymore But I have to "talk" to someone, or I'll burst. Which he would eventually understand, but he would insist on that the site I chose, or the manner/tone of writing, or the timing,, or the things I wrote about, or something about *how* I did my talking was wrong.

I don't know if anything I say will help or not, but it may take a lot of time before he can even begin to admit to himself that he may fall under the autistic spectrum. Once I heard about AS, it took me a few months to process it in my mind, and then I slowly started to mention things here and there to my husband, suggesting that it might be something that he has. It took a few years of denial/"do you really think so?" which then eventually moved on to, "Maybe I do have AS." I was lucky that he didn't react badly to my bringing it up. I'm not sure that I would have done the same.

Anyway, after years of us both wondering if he had AS, he finally went in for testing because his long-term depression finally got bad enough that he went from meds and counseling being for other people to something that he could do, which was a MAJOR step for him. Really huge. I think it finally got bad enough that he was willing to try anything. So he had them do the AS testing since he was in there anyway for the depression testing/treatment. Even after his AS diagnosis, it took him a few weeks to actually believe it and have it really sink in.

So I don't know what to tell you except hang in there and maybe the time will come that he will be more open to getting the help that he needs. Best of luck.

Is it true?


Sometimes a person sees most clearly in the intuition of deep emotion.
And has less reservation about saying what they see.


Something of a very similar character took place here last year.
That is why I asked what I bluntly asked.

I just think you both have valid opinions, one is not more right than the other.
My ex had the same opinion about labels, and now I can see that is true to some degree.

Just be you, and let him work it out for himself.

If kids need help though, that is another situation altogether, they might need a label or might not.

Athena,

No advice for you but WOW, a lot of what you said sounds like me & my husband. Especially the thing about thinking I'm trying to dominate him (when I'm not) and that my neutral comments are criticisms (when they're not).

I've always given him the benefit of the doubt when he says our problems are due to my Asperger's issues... how interesting you point out that it may be due to him having similar unrecoginzed issues.

Wish I had some advice for you, but as it turns out YOU had the advice for me! Thank you.

Having had a lot of frustrating moments over the last two decades with my husband, I have now had it pointed out to me(forgive me, gentlemen reading this) "that's just men for you".

I'm the aspie, he was the NT with issues of his own, and whenever I managed to pin down stuff, he would go highly defensive, blame me, sulk, go off. Basically, nothing was his fault, why on earth would I not stop talking about it, and oh yes, now he feels bad, and it's my fault.

Out of curiosity, do any other married women here recognise this behaviour?

Thanks for all the comments; being able to vent here and getting answers (being visible, getting heard) feels really helpful!

This was an important question that I have thought a lot about:

Sometimes probably yes, even though it depends on what one sees as "dominating".

One poignant example was flowers and cards. In the beginning of our relationship we both wrote tender emails - often poetry - to each other, first daily and the at least weekly. We also both sent and brought cute cards and/or flowers fairly often (first several times per week, then at least monthly). Somewhere down the line, some years later I noticed that he had all but stopped doing these things, that I was pretty much alone in bringing him flowers and cards. This realization made me feel uncertain of his feelings towards me - however, I didn't give any thought to that he was having a really unpleasant time at work then, where his then-boss was more or less sabotaging his masters thesis work (she had a bachelors degree herself - she was later removed from management duties altogether, my hubby was not the only subordinate that she sabotaged when they started to get further academically than she had). One day, pretty soon after he had gotten home from work, I explained that I missed the flowers and cards and told him that receiving them made me happy and I would like to receive them more often, like he used to do when we were new to our relationship. I tried to express this very clearly with direct words, as we had made a Pact of No Hinting for our communication (we were both sick and tired of our respective mothers' indirect communication styles).

I expected him to be happy of the clear tip on how to make me happy - instead he looked uncomfortable and said that he felt it was dishonest to bring flowers if it was not a spontaneous act. I could not understand such a point of view because I found it illogical. If he only brought me flowers when the act was spontaneous, then he would most likely bring me flowers when he happened to pass a flower stand on his way home to me, but there were no flower stands along his normal route home from work (we had moved in together at this point). So insistence on spontaneity would under these circumstances lead to that he would bring me flowers considerably more seldom than what made me truly happy. He seemed even more uncomfortable but insisted that bringing me flowers "just because I wanted it" would feel wrong to him.

Now I got worried and tense (which probably showed). Instead of calmly reminding him about what we had learned from various relationship books about working on a relationship, I said (in a somewhat accusatory tone) that it felt unfair to me that my bringing of flowers and cards was so one-sided nowadays. "Then don't bring them, they are not that important to me", he said in exasperation, which made me feel even more unvalued and unwelcome, and pretty soon we were in a truly unproductive tug-o-war about whether doing things for the reason that one's partner wishes or wants them is a good or a bad thing.

Only considerably later in the discussion/quarrel did I calm down sufficiently to say that in my understanding a happy long-term relationship is built only partly on spontaneity, and on a bigger part on being attentive to each other's needs and on decision and commitment, i.e. work. I see a successful relationship sort of as a project: you put in effort, good intentions, listening, adapting etc. and some of the time you will feel really happy, if you are lucky. But you will not have constant happiness - expecting that would be foolishly unrealistic. And you will not have a good long-term relationship based solely on spontaneous acts, nobody can realistically expect to be so lucky for a longer time. BUT I forgot to reference to the relationship books we had studied together - I presented this viewpoint as mine (and pretty emotionally too, I bet). Besides, anxiety / sensory overload / emotional intensity -wise it was probably too late in that discussion/quarrel already then. In hindsight I suspect that he had shut down or melted down partly around the time of his "then don't bring flowers to me" comment, and after this the discussion did not really make headway, because after he starts to shut or melt down, words seem to be for him like shields or weapons for warding off and ending a situation that has become overloading for him, and the content of the words does not necessarily correlate with anything he really thinks or feels when he is more himself.

I did not know about the autism spectrum when this quarrel happened and I had no idea that someone could be seemingly communicating, even though many of their brain functions had all but shut down and they would not be able to remember much about the discussion/quarrel, or explain why they had said the things they had said. I also had no idea of how totally drained an aspie can feel straight after a workday, even though I already knew how deeply my hubby (then-boyfriend) detested malls and other (noisy, lively) gatherings of people. What seemed simple enough to me (drive by the mall, grab the flowers and then head home) could be a serious sensory overload threat to him. Combine this with his compulsive honesty (which has many, many good sides, too!) and it is easy to see that getting me flowers on his way home from work would feel very awkward and unpleasant to him. Sigh, hindsight really is 20/20...

And of course, *he* had no idea that he could try to look "behind" his own arguments (the importance of spontaneity and honesty), that there could be more there than what he immediately found words for. For example, that situations he remembered as "spontaneous" - emotionally good experiences of buying flowers - maybe had some common quality that lead to the spontaneity, such as maybe the inviting-looking flower stand was deserted and quiet, with no or only few other customers around.

After this quarrel I was left with a feeling of being unvalued and uncared for ("you are not important enough for me to even consider changing anything in my habits - besides, I don't much care for one of the main ways you show affection"). He, no doubt, was left with exasperation about my being so high maintenance and having too-specific demands and accepting dishonest manipulation in a relationship ("you would like it if I pretended something that I don't feel, just so you can get exactly what you want exactly when you want it").

Big sigh.

I so wish I had known back then what I know (well, guess) now. But I didn't. So similar quarrels have happened over and over again, making us see each other more like self-centered, dominating enemies than well-intentioned partners who are on the same side. And that is a really difficult rut to get out of, before we both have some tools to recognize sensory overload, beginning shutdowns, threatening meltdowns etc, both in ourselves and in each other. And to get to those tools, one has to accept at least the possibility of that sensory overload, shutdowns and meltdowns are somehow relevant to oneself. I do accept that I have ADHD and I already organize my life a lot based on avoiding sensory overload and creating peace and quiet for successful thinking, studying and writing. For example, I near-categorically refuse to drive to campus, even though buses etc. take double the time, because driving during rush hour always winds me up and often makes me aggressive and physically restless, whereas sitting in a bus lets me meditate and calm down my mind so that I can learn optimally when I get to class.

I really, really hope that I will be able to genuinely have the patience to let him find his own way to accepting whatever spectrum-related or other feeling/functioning/thinking features he has that need attention and management in his and our daily life. Only patience is not exactly something typical addies are famous for...

BTW: The saddest thing to me with this particular example is that after that quarrel and his sticking to bringing flowers only when he feels like it afterwards, I nowadays sometimes feel sad (!) when he or someone else *does* bring me flowers or sends me a card. I think this is because I have (partly and somewhat unsuccessfully) shut down my joy of anticipation regarding flowers and cards, so flowers and cards got partly spoiled for me through this quarrel (anticipation or looking forward to has always been an important part of most kinds of enjoyment for me - I do not know why that is so, it seems to be a part of my emotional "architecture").

So, to answer southwestforests' question with more questions: Is wanting such expressions of caring that I like and that make me happy the same as attempting to dominate? I don't think it is black and white, it's more a question of degree. For example, I need to really apply myself to find birthday presents for him that *he* likes - if I went with my first or second spontaneous idea, it would lead to giving him what *I* would want, what would make *me* happy, and that wouldn't be loving towards him. Does that make me unspontaneous, dishonest or manipulative? And sometimes I do give him something that, if scrupulously analyzed, I maybe do like more than he does - does that make me lazy, selfish or uncaring?

- Athena

It just sounds like you are caught in analysing things too much.

Maybe if you just be, and set an example of how the dx has helped you, he will catch on to that, sooner or later, if you feel that strongly that it will help him. (which you have already said)

I think in trying to control or stick to a routine, some people find that domineering. I was unaware of my father doing that until I moved out of home, and then I tried to do that in my relationships.

Thanks, emc2, you hit the nail on the head, but there is a flip side to this, which complicates things. The way my brain seems to be wired, and the way I grew up has lead to that I am pretty much incapable of not observing, not remembering and not pondering on human relationships and communication. Call it my obsession, if that helps in understanding. First, I was four years old when I found myself sitting on the floor of the nursery thinking that I could think, and that I could think about my own thinking, and that I liked all this. I've liked thinking (and reading, and writing and talking about what I've read and/or thought) ever since. Second, both my father's abusiveness and being bullied for so many years in school trained me to always be hyper-vigilant about (human) sounds and gestures around me or approaching. Any sudden movement, loud sound or discrepancy between word content and non-verbal communication, any hint of malice was a valid reason to flit away or to bolt, and this hypersensitivity saved me from more beatings than I can count. And now, when a lower sensitivity to discrepancies between words and nonverbal signs would no doubt make me a lot happier in my marriage, I *can't* switch off the observe-filter-notice-analyze subroutine in my brain. I could about as easily try not to breathe.

If this is hard to believe, I can try to illustrate: every time I relax (feel that something is OK, ready, accomplished or safe) I automatically and immediately tense and check around for danger. *Every* time! Relaxing was something that simply was not safe to do if my dad or my school tormentors, who were numerous, was/were anywhere around. So I am still, after all these years unable to "just" relax, my relaxing always goes through several steps: first, spontaneous reaction - second, internal warning reflex goes off - third, I check the situation I am in - and finally I tell myself, consciously, that I am safe and allowed to relax.

What I can do about my hypersensitivity / hyperanalyzing - and what makes Wrong Planet so immensely valuable for me, if you guys can stand an obsession that I pretty much shove in your faces with these writings - is do the analyzing away from my husband. This should spare him from the emotional/sensory overload of having to hear (all) my ramblings (trust me, my verbal ponderings are even wordier and a lot less logical or calm than what I can manage when I write). With any luck I will be able to spot background reasons for and tell-tale signs of overload/shutdown/meltdown in the old situations I analyze, and learn from the analysis so that I can react more constructively to similar situations in the future.

Or so I hope...

- Athena

Actually, this was really helpful, as it shows that I am not alone - that others have managed to get through a similar situation.

Thanks especially for bringing up depression - it has been and still is one of my husband's main problems, on and off.

- Athena

Generalising, I would say it is a strong trait to overanalyse social situations for most on WP.

However, I understand for some people it is their obsession, whether it be making friends, or other relationships..

The downside is I've noticed that it magnifies this overanalysis even further, stressing the person out.


Is there anything else you are fixated with, that would be a bit relaxing, like a collection, hobby, pet, or something else, crosswords what have you?

Reading fiction, especially sci-fi, fantasy or detective stories. I've recently re-read The Hobbit like for the tenth or twelfth time, and just started on yet another Paretsky / Warshawski story. Also, I love some TV series and movie (series), like House, CSI, Poirot and Miss Marple.

I try to consciously lose myself in some predictable enough make-believe world, when I notice that I'm on overdrive in the real one. It helps.

Thanks for asking!

- Athena

"He seemed even more uncomfortable but insisted that bringing me flowers "just because I wanted it" would feel wrong to him. "

Boy did this line seem familiar to me. Way back (15 years ago) when we first got engaged, we sort of knew/wanted to/agreed that we would get married, but no official "proposal" had ever come from him. Well, having dreamt of this part, as most girls do, growing up, I really stressed to him how important it was to me that he officially ask me to marry him. I didn't need anything spectacular, just a sentence to that effect. But it took a few weeks of him not wanting to because it didn't seem logical to him. I was frustrated because the "just because I wanted him to" part to me seemed like all the reason in the world that anyone would need. But eventually he recognized that it logically would be a good idea so that the engagement could officially "start." So he did end up asking me officially.

And the gift-giving has been rough over the years. For example, he REALLY hates feeling societal pressure to give me things on Valentine's Day just because everyone else is. He much prefers just to give spontaneously and just skip the whole Feb. 14th thing. Over the years, he's agreed to at least acknowledge the holiday for me, even if it's just a hand-written card.

And I learned after a year or so that he really doesn't want anything unless he specifically would like it (or else if gets returned). He literally would much rather not get anything as opposed to getting something that he really didn't want. I realize that everyone gets things all the time that they didn't necessarily want, but for him, it's just really hard to deal with. So I usually ask him if it's okay for me to get him an item, or I have to be sure that it's something he was planning on getting anyway, and it can't cost too much money-he is EXTREMELY frugal. One year, he was totally happy getting a $3 plastic watch thing (the kind for your car-no wristband-sensory issues you know) for him to replace the one that he keeps in his pocket. I know that sounds cheap, but I am not kidding that he is much happier this way. He's told me so-I'm not assuming.

Also, I know it doesn't sound romantic or anything, but I usually pick out all my own gifts (that will be for me from him/the family), and we are both happy and relieved to do it that way.

I guess having several years to work out the kinks of gift giving/getting, we now have a system that works for us.

I feel relieved, I have read so many posts by people who's obsession is people! It can be a bit destructive.

AthenaErdmann,

I think your situation is fairly common for spouses of people with AS. It sounds really familiar with what my wife and I went through a few years ago. In the end, I felt like I had a decision to make:
- Do the not-spontaneous purchase of flowers, etc to make my wife happy, or
- Continue "killing off" the joy my wife felt from various things

So I changed. I probably don't buy flowers as much as I should, but I try to pay more attention to the frequency of things like this (along with offhand comments my wife makes about things she'd like). I find it difficult at work to stop and think about "not-work" - but technology is great for that. I just put a recurring appointment on my Calendar during lunch (I eat at my desk) to think about not-work - including things at home.

I'm not sure how to communicate this to your guy - but isn't the real issue that you're not seeing "effort" in this area? I realize you appreciate the flowers and cards - but if it's really the effort of your partner doing something special to show their appreciation for you, maybe that's somewhere to start. Perhaps he could do something else - write you a poem, or plan a date-night out or something along those lines that doesn't involve going to a store or busy place. Those are other things that I'm horrible at - but when pushed to do it, I'll come through because I want to be the guy that puts effort into making my wife happy.