I always end up becoming the beta of a male social group

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roadGames
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27 Dec 2009, 11:16 pm

and I'm done with it.

How does this happen? I speak whatever comes to my mind and I think I end up sounding like a buffoon sometimes. I am absolutely horrible at comebacks and am visibly reactive when I'm getting ranked on. For instance, one of my legitimate friends kept teasing me about how he was going to have gay relations with me (you know, typical guy crap about turning everything into an "I'm going to f*ck you tonight" sort of comment). I sometimes had good comebacks to his BS like saying I'd only do it if he was the powerbottom (lol), but in the end he'd always spin it back.

How do I blow these incidents off? I don't even want to rank on people or get ranked on period. It's unpleasant. Is it possible to dig yourself out of the beta ditch or is this like that concrete solid "first impression" girls get of you within the first 30 seconds of meeting that is nearly impossible to change. Should I just cut my losses and exit this group? My best friend is part of this and he's one of the guys that sort of initiates these rankings, but he never really does it himself, he just gets other people to.

I used to think I needed a group to go out to bars and parties with, but I've found I can do it solo no problem and I usually have a blast. The last two times I went out solo (no alcohol involved whatsoever), girls were initiating conversations with me, dancing with me on the street randomly, and I was making friends for the night with some of the dudes there.

I've seriously entertained the thought of just being nomadic with women I meet randomly (if I hang out with her for more than a one night stand, she'll find how bad I am with guys, and totally reject me), having a few good friends I hang out with one on one (ranking never occurs this way), and not belonging to any big informal social group (>3 people).



AspiRob
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27 Dec 2009, 11:58 pm

The problem is this - the legitimate "friend" you mentioned is not really a friend at all. He is just an @$$hole who is using you to build up his own social standing. Unfortunately, this is happening at the expense of your social standing. Friends do not do this. A true friend will build you up, not break you down. If I were you, I would ditch this idiot and either do as you suggested (have fun by yourself) and/or find some true friends.

Best of luck with it.


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AspiRob
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28 Dec 2009, 12:01 am

roadGames wrote:
I used to think I needed a group to go out to bars and parties with, but I've found I can do it solo no problem and I usually have a blast. The last two times I went out solo (no alcohol involved whatsoever), girls were initiating conversations with me, dancing with me on the street randomly, and I was making friends for the night with some of the dudes there.


God Almighty - it sounds like you have the whole social scene worked out. I wish I was that clued in.


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dustintorch
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28 Dec 2009, 12:24 am

It's like this for me too. I actually disagree with Aspirob. I read in Tony Attwood's "Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" that people (especially males) tease each other to show affection. If it makes you super uncomfortable then maybe cut back on how much you hang out with them. I'm not going to say I deal with it splendidly. I have problems with it too, but I just try to remind myself of what I read in the book. When I get fed up with it, I usually just start to ignore them and pretend like they're not there, until I get my energy back to deal with it. They just move on to someone else when I do this. I'm not good at comebacks either btw. I usually get laughs by saying really random stuff out of nowhere, but not with my comebacks.



amazon_television
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28 Dec 2009, 2:46 am

I disagree as well. I just got back from my hometown and my friends there are the wildest s**t talkers ever, and it bounces back and forth flawlessly with genuine kindness. For the most part we've known each other variously for 10-15 years; there is no "alpha" whatsoever, and nobody is safe. Everyone gets punished pretty much equally. No one cares.


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LittleTigger
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28 Dec 2009, 5:49 am

When I am sick of being bagged on, I purposely
come back with cheap lines, ie, "yo mama",
"poopyface" "you don't have to lie to impress me"
"ok, boogernose/bogeybum" "poopyface, poopyface
you are a poopyface!"

wear them out and they will either back off
or get tired of you and let you slip out of
the group.


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roadGames
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29 Dec 2009, 2:40 pm

AspiRob wrote:
roadGames wrote:
I used to think I needed a group to go out to bars and parties with, but I've found I can do it solo no problem and I usually have a blast. The last two times I went out solo (no alcohol involved whatsoever), girls were initiating conversations with me, dancing with me on the street randomly, and I was making friends for the night with some of the dudes there.


God Almighty - it sounds like you have the whole social scene worked out. I wish I was that clued in.


It's not as difficult as it sounds. You just need to desensitize yourself to it by going out a lot. Most people are drunk and just wanna have a good time. Be friendly, relaxed, and gentle with people.

Part of the fun I get out of it is that it's instant feedback on how you approach women. After 70+ approaches (spread them out over many venues and weeks or else you're going to get a weird reputation), you're gonna be able to read female signals very, very well regardless of an ASD.

I can now see the initial signs of attraction from random girls on the street without even talking to them just by watching their eyes. (Note that this is coming from a person clinically diagnosed with an ASD who used to never make eye contact with anybody.) *90% of the time, when a girl holds eye contact with me and then looks down with a bit of a blush or smile, this girl is going to turn out to be very friendly with me. Sometimes she'll even say "Hi. My name's [blahblahblah]" before I even open my mouth.

*This mainly happens when I'm out during the day, not at night. At night, the smiling rarely occurs unless it's a long eye contact and I wink or something. What you should be doing at night is just maybe a second of eye contact as you approach the girl, don't flinch, and boom it's now your time to say something. It doesn't matter what you say, just say something. I like to do "What's up? My name's roadGames."

I do get approached a lot by women (around twice a night), though. Sometimes they're super cute girls and sometimes they're kind of flabby. For me, I think the key to getting approached by girls at bars/clubs is just to dress well and not oogle the girls (i.e. check them out). It might not even be body language. The first time I went out with the guys, I dressed up really freaking nice (cream colored blazer and a nice matching button-up I found at goodwill) and styled my hair. During this night I was COMPLETELY nervous. My shoulders were scrunched up aspie style, I never made eye contact with a single person, my hands were in my pockets, I moved like I had a stick up my butt, and I clenched my beer to my chest. My body language was so poor that this group of dudes stopped me asking if I'm OK. Despite this, one girl tried to grab my ass, this cute girl pulled me aside to be in a picture with her, and two other girls high-fived me trying to get me to dance with them. I initiated the interactions with not a single one of these girls. Since that first night out, my body language improved tremendously, enough so that a good amount of girls like it when I'm the approacher. I've met many girls through petitioning now, haha.

Regardless, figuring out how to maintain social status in a group of socially calibrated guys is a complete mystery to me at the moment. Is it simply not being a reactive person?



dustintorch
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29 Dec 2009, 3:17 pm

Roadgames, it sounds like you're a very attractive guy. I don't mean to say it's impossible for people with an ASD who are not attractive, but it's much harder. Imagine being unattractive and unsociable at the same time. I've come to realize this combination is what is making it so hard for certain people with an ASD to achieve what they want in this world. Even if they are relatively mild. There isn't really a solution to that problem that I can see right now. It's because this world, above anything else, will always be obsessed with beauty over brains. So even the most awkward beautiful person, will still be able to find a boyfriend/girlfriend. As far as the male social ranking goes...If they're straight, chances are they don't care what you look like. It may be the "not a reactive person " thing you're talking about. If you're bad at comebacks (like me, most of the time) you will be seen as an easy target. Sometimes I can be quite good at comebacks, but only when I'm at my very best. I get exhausted from social situations and the more time I spend with people, the less reactive I become. This is usually fixed by taking a break. Maybe that's what you need too.



roadGames
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29 Dec 2009, 6:30 pm

Dust, I can come up with "good" comebacks that really insult people to the point of them wanting to beat the crap out of me, but why would I do that? I don't want to make people upset and I genuinely like these guys whenever they're not ranking. I'll try to think before I say things (thus reducing the possibility of this happening) and become a lot more quiet.

I'm 5'9" and skinny. I never had a girlfriend in high school, some fat girl dragged me around saying I was the ugliest guy she knew when I was in HS, and in grade school, I used to get called monkey face all the time. One kid tried to insult me by asking what it was like to be a primate (lol, what an idiotic insult given that humans are primates, but I didn't say that to him). In college, no girls gave me any attention that I knew of besides some girl I cold approached (first approach ever, lol) who rejected me after 3 dates (I didn't bust a move and that's exactly why she stopped seeing me).

If I am in anyway, shape, or form attractive, it's because of the way I hold myself now. I bet a lot of you guys are the same way. Poor social skills will make you think you're the ugliest dude on the planet because you will never see the signals girls send. Here's a picture from Halloween before I started looking at cameras and adjusting my body language (I don't have any other pictures):

Image
(I'm a financial terrorist just in case you're wondering, lol)

Right after that picture, I got wasted at some bar (I don't drink anymore) and it got my guard down enough to start looking at girls in the eye, and holy sh*t, it was like I had just tapped into the matrix. Until I got drunk, I didn't realize one of them was doing the eye contact thing with me hard. As soon as I sat next to her, we started talking and she started getting closer and closer until our faces were touching. At that point, I got up and walked around the bar, and some random girl approached me trying to get me to dance with her and I told her that I don't dance, we small talked, and that was that.

After that, I kept passing by this one girl doing this laser eye contact thing with me. I didn't approach, but she looked nice and friendly. I noticed this adorable girl with ice blue eyes dancing by herself and asked her what her costume was. From there, I told her I don't dance and she pulled me right in. I had a fun time chitchatting with her about nothing and eventually made out with her. On the train ride home, I got this random cute girl to smile and blush by holding eye contact with her and I felt better than I ever had in my entire life up to that point.



AspiRob
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30 Dec 2009, 4:12 am

roadGames wrote:
Poor social skills will make you think you're the ugliest dude on the planet


Amen to that.


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AspiRob
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30 Dec 2009, 4:15 am

roadGames wrote:
Here's a picture from Halloween before I started looking at cameras and adjusting my body language


That's the other problem I have - a complete lack of understanding of body language. I have no idea if my body language is good, bad or what. Even if I did, I would have no idea how to adjust it and what to.


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racooneyes
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30 Dec 2009, 4:41 am

Rob there's an amazing book called What Every Body Is Saying by Joe Navarro that will let you know everything you just said you don't know in that post, I highly recommend it (and have several times lol).

RG I think what LittleTigger said is very useful, sounds stupid but it really works, basic deflection if they're not getting the desired reaction they'll stop. The most important thing you should work on is not reacting or reacting differently than you do at least. If they see you getting upset they'll go at it harder.

Instead of frowning and looking pissed off when being 'ranked' you should either smile shake your head and laugh along with it or maybe narrow your eyes and give them a menacing grin making it obvious you're going to pay them back for hte slight, 'I'm gonna get you for that' kind of thing. You should always try and get someone back for doing it too, it's only fair. Remember even though it's serious at the deeper level on the surface it's just a bit of fun so don't go too far when you're getting them back or it will look worse for you.


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Greshym_Shorkan
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30 Dec 2009, 5:37 am

roadGames wrote:

Part of the fun I get out of it is that it's instant feedback on how you approach women. After 70+ approaches (spread them out over many venues and weeks or else you're going to get a weird reputation), you're gonna be able to read female signals very, very well regardless of an ASD.


That's true! Now here's the rub of it- can you bounce back after the first ten or so mishaps? It can get you down, fast.



roadGames
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30 Dec 2009, 6:28 am

AspiRob wrote:
roadGames wrote:
Here's a picture from Halloween before I started looking at cameras and adjusting my body language


That's the other problem I have - a complete lack of understanding of body language. I have no idea if my body language is good, bad or what. Even if I did, I would have no idea how to adjust it and what to.


I used to wish there was a system where I could attach kinematic sensors at each joint so I could view what was wrong with my walk dynamics on some kind of 3D coordinate plane. There's a pretty default way of walking and holding myself that I use now when I'm out in public, lol. Shoulders back and relaxed, chest out, back straight, hands moving freely and relaxed on your sides, and walk a little bit slower than usual. Walking into any building like this makes it look like you own the place and you'll appear very, very comfortable. Be very friendly with everyone you meet and you're gonna be loved by most. Do not stifle your actions by second guessing them once you're well into executing them, it makes you look extremely weak.

I can't stress how much of a difference wearing decent clothes that fit you well makes.



roadGames
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30 Dec 2009, 8:55 am

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
roadGames wrote:

Part of the fun I get out of it is that it's instant feedback on how you approach women. After 70+ approaches (spread them out over many venues and weeks or else you're going to get a weird reputation), you're gonna be able to read female signals very, very well regardless of an ASD.


That's true! Now here's the rub of it- can you bounce back after the first ten or so mishaps? It can get you down, fast.


Absolutely. I did 15-20 approaches in a huge mall once with a very experienced and understanding friend who's amazing with women. The first several approaches were utterly awful. I'd croak out a "hey, quick question, I need to find [store]" and go on my merry way in whatever direction they sent me in without transitioning into small talk (or better yet, telling them I thought they looked adorable in whatever article of clothing). Probably 6 of the rest of those approaches were outright rejections (i.e. they ignored me or told me they had a bf/were married, looked at me like "wtf" when I told them they were cute, ), the next few were ejections from conversations that were going well (ran out of things to say! [total newbie error]), and a couple went well enough that I got numbers (I've got a date with one of those girls today).

This sort of activity makes you put far, far less of a premium on female attention in your direction because you begin to realize it's so abundant everywhere. You will begin to get friend zoned less and less by girls you're attracted to because you won't even follow up with girls that don't show at least some of the initial signs of attraction that appear within 30 seconds of you being in their presence and saying something. These include the obvious blushing, her looking down after locking eyes, smiling, winking, and pupil dilation. You probably won't have to even specifically look for these, because after going through so many sets where the girls are warm, you'll just be able to pick up the vibe. It's so much more healthy and now you won't have to post on the Love and Dating forum wondering if you have been friend zoned.

Do not do 15-20 approaches at a bar or club, which is a much smaller venue and you could very well end up approaching almost of the girls there, garnering you a creep reputation.



AspiRob
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30 Dec 2009, 4:01 pm

racooneyes wrote:
Rob there's an amazing book called What Every Body Is Saying by Joe Navarro that will let you know everything you just said you don't know in that post, I highly recommend it (and have several times lol).


Thanks for the advice. I will look into it.


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