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Greshym_Shorkan
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07 Jan 2010, 8:13 pm

I visited a friend I haven't seen in years last night. We both got to talking about the past. I was shocked how much he remembered, and I had no idea the rejection got to him so bad. We were both class of 2000, so it's been awhile, but I can tell he's still pissed, in spite of his success.

I'm of the opinion that it's time to do something about the way we treat our kids, and how they treat each other. I think a lot of good people are getting destroyed for stupid, minor things. I don't know what we need to do, but this crap can't go on like this. I don't care if you all think I'm naive, or that it's a lost cause- we can't let people become psychologically damaged and needlessly scarred for life over such trivial crap.



Peko
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07 Jan 2010, 9:00 pm

:salut:


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VincentVanJones
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07 Jan 2010, 9:35 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
I visited a friend I haven't seen in years last night. We both got to talking about the past. I was shocked how much he remembered, and I had no idea the rejection got to him so bad. We were both class of 2000, so it's been awhile, but I can tell he's still pissed, in spite of his success.

I'm of the opinion that it's time to do something about the way we treat our kids, and how they treat each other. I think a lot of good people are getting destroyed for stupid, minor things. I don't know what we need to do, but this crap can't go on like this. I don't care if you all think I'm naive, or that it's a lost cause- we can't let people become psychologically damaged and needlessly scarred for life over such trivial crap.


That's more about how peers treat each other, not about reforming the education system at the HS level.

I do agree that it would be great if other kids would be nicer, but it's not going to happen no matter what we wish. Even if a teacher cares, kids will find ways to be tyrants anyways. There are some things kids do to others that are very hard to spot (a hand motion, a particular comment) that teachers, no matter how vigilant, will miss. Much abuse can be given by silence as well. You speak of rejection. Lets say some how the teachers were so on top of things nobody could be mean verbally or physically. Guess what? Then they just exclude. Exclusion can be more painful then teasing many times. If a kid wants so bad to fit in, sometimes the most effective for of bullying is to just ignore them.



Greshym_Shorkan
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07 Jan 2010, 11:20 pm

VincentVanJones wrote:
That's more about how peers treat each other, not about reforming the education system at the HS level.

I do agree that it would be great if other kids would be nicer, but it's not going to happen no matter what we wish.


There will always be mean people, but I think the very environment that is 9th through 12th grade encourages severe abuse. Wouldn't you say certain institutions have changed over the years, and are at least supposed to be more humane? When I say "reform," I don't envision the whole thing can change over night. We're looking at a long term process, with small changes happening over the course of generations. I HONEST to God believe future generations will look back on the 1970-2030 time frame and feel appalled at how harsh some students' lots were. Of course, as medicine and neurology advance, we'll have treatment for many problems that -if go untreated- can make for a disastrous and traumatic experience.

and I'd like to reemphasize that I am absolutely convinced that the scars received from perceived rejection and harassment do serious damage to our psyche. More than we know at this time in history



trojan51
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08 Jan 2010, 1:32 am

ya but how would high school be reformed?



TheMidnightJudge
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08 Jan 2010, 2:01 am

Making it through any part of life without psychological scars seems an unlikely fantasy. But if you can think of a feasible idea to improve things, then we an go from there.
It's just that, when I look back at high school, I can't think of any systematic improvements that would have alleviated my trauma.


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08 Jan 2010, 5:01 am

Is it so much that the high school environment on the system/administrative level needs reform, or current parenting practices needing reform?


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ruennsheng
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08 Jan 2010, 10:42 am

HS has been a not-so-pleasant experience for me but I think no matter what happened...

Just look back those days with a smile.

HS is a place where dreams to go to Harvard, Northwestern and even Michigan go bust.

But HS is also the place where we learn ourselves better in relation to our society, which we will live in for the rest of our lives after school, instead of thinking so short-term (ie the next four to ten years in another school).

Sounds good? :)


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08 Jan 2010, 1:07 pm

Sounds good!


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Dnex
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08 Jan 2010, 5:36 pm

ruennsheng wrote:
HS has been a not-so-pleasant experience for me but I think no matter what happened...

Just look back those days with a smile.

HS is a place where dreams to go to Harvard, Northwestern and even Michigan go bust.

But HS is also the place where we learn ourselves better in relation to our society, which we will live in for the rest of our lives after school, instead of thinking so short-term (ie the next four to ten years in another school).

Sounds good? :)

Good advice. :D



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09 Jan 2010, 12:15 am

Reform ideas (based on my HS experiences):

1. NEVER get pissed at/yell at students for taking a friend to the nurse b/c they're having a nervous breakdown/panic attack! :x
2. Based on #1, stop reacting like slugs to emergencies (walking while a student's seizuring = STUPID MORONS :x)
3. Eliminate (or at least put severe limits on) group projects & lab work (also, don't automatically put HFA + Aspie w/ fine motor issues as Chem & advanced Bio lab partners b/c we'll "get along" :roll:) (I'm all for autistic people working together, but some things DON'T work...): if their are partner issues make it small group of 3-4 instead (so their should be at least 1-2 competent students)
4. No more BUSY WORK, make all assignments serious & w/ an actual purpose
5. STOP the "lazy passes"- passing students to "get them through" when they've done nothing within 4 years!
6. Stop the prison food (my area, food that my district rejected went to the prison system... perogies should not bounce like crappy rubber bouncy balls...)
7. Safety/Equipment instruction to gym staff (ex. don't let kids w/ MR do forward rolls b/c the vertbrae in the spinal column in their cases is not fused well & they could be paralyzed ( my Mom's an OT & ran her own gym for 20 yrs./knows her stuff)
8. (This will sound highly controversial:) School should be OPTIONAL so all students who come actually want to learn & the trouble makers are gone... an environment where everyone WANTS to LEARN, WOW what a novel idea :D :D :D :lol: 8O
9. Regularly enforced dress codes (I'm fine w/ punk/emo/goth, etc. & piecings, but coming to school in only a long shirt w/o underwear &/or tatoos of eyeballs right above your exposed crack... GOOD LORD (I don't care if I'm a prude) BUT COVER UP!
10. Sex Ed should be reformed (I think we need a special Aspie/Autie class :D)

If you think I should change anything that's fine b/c we need more opinions :)


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Balance is needed within the universe, can be demonstrated in most/all concepts/things. Black/White, Good/Evil, etc.
All dependent upon your own perspective in your own form of existence, so trust your own gut and live the way YOU want/need to.


VincentVanJones
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09 Jan 2010, 12:39 am

Peko wrote:
Reform ideas (based on my HS experiences):

1. NEVER get pissed at/yell at students for taking a friend to the nurse b/c they're having a nervous breakdown/panic attack! :x
2. Based on #1, stop reacting like slugs to emergencies (walking while a student's seizuring = STUPID MORONS :x)
3. Eliminate (or at least put severe limits on) group projects & lab work (also, don't automatically put HFA + Aspie w/ fine motor issues as Chem & advanced Bio lab partners b/c we'll "get along" :roll:) (I'm all for autistic people working together, but some things DON'T work...): if their are partner issues make it small group of 3-4 instead (so their should be at least 1-2 competent students)
4. No more BUSY WORK, make all assignments serious & w/ an actual purpose
5. STOP the "lazy passes"- passing students to "get them through" when they've done nothing within 4 years!
6. Stop the prison food (my area, food that my district rejected went to the prison system... perogies should not bounce like crappy rubber bouncy balls...)
7. Safety/Equipment instruction to gym staff (ex. don't let kids w/ MR do forward rolls b/c the vertbrae in the spinal column in their cases is not fused well & they could be paralyzed ( my Mom's an OT & ran her own gym for 20 yrs./knows her stuff)
8. (This will sound highly controversial:) School should be OPTIONAL so all students who come actually want to learn & the trouble makers are gone... an environment where everyone WANTS to LEARN, WOW what a novel idea :D :D :D :lol: 8O
9. Regularly enforced dress codes (I'm fine w/ punk/emo/goth, etc. & piecings, but coming to school in only a long shirt w/o underwear &/or tatoos of eyeballs right above your exposed crack... GOOD LORD (I don't care if I'm a prude) BUT COVER UP!
10. Sex Ed should be reformed (I think we need a special Aspie/Autie class :D)

If you think I should change anything that's fine b/c we need more opinions :)


My thoughts on those:

1. I have never had this problem.
2. That is not school specific... Police/LE/Fire etc response times could all use improvement.
3. I STRONGLY am against eliminating or limiting group projects, especially just for people who don't like them. Maybe make them optional (You can choose to group or not)
4. I agree 100%, but some kids need busy work to stay out of trouble.
5. That would mean I would still be in HS >.>
6. School food is pretty much universally toxic at most public schools. Many privates schools are just as bad though.
7. What kind of gym class did you have 0_o. Forward rolling on a hard floor for beginners is asking for injury... And if a kid has MR it will (or should) be on record and the teacher is not even allowed to let them is most cases
8. Yes it is a controversial idea, and one I think is bad. It may seem like that now, but all those kids who hate school, if allowed to skip... well there are a few scenarios:

The troublemakers would be out in the world causing more trouble
The kids who hate work will miss it
The kids who get stressed with school will not go
etc

You make it sound like everyone but a few want to learn and those few are the problem. Even people who want to learn, hated school, and thus would not have gone. If this was optional, class size would drop by at least 90% everywhere. Even if you don't want to be there, most people do get something out of it and it helps point a majority of people in the right direction who would otherwise fall to drugs/crime/nothing

9. What school, even one with no dress code, allows under wear and eyeball above crack tatoos to be shown? The moment to restrict it to anything more then this is bad. Dress code really should mean nothing extremely offense for clothing (shirts like "f**k the World" are fine, ones that say "f**k all Retards" are not) and minimum attire.

10. Sex ed is what it is, and is generally immature due to the students. And really, there are not enough Aspies in anyone location in general to even think that justifying the time/expense for a SEPARATE class.



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09 Jan 2010, 1:13 am

Overall, my high school experience was not as bad as it would have been if it wasn't for a dedicated vice principal and many dedicated teachers.Yes, there was some group work, BUT if I was left out, I had the option of doing the work myself or they would place me in a group full of smart kids who are NOT bullies.There has been the rare occasion where I ended up in the group of bullies, but that was due to bad luck because the teacher had the groups done by a hat draw....The bullies did nothing...I got an 'excused" on the assignment and did not lose marks..The bullies got Zero's. The bullying was bad, BUT most of what could have been alot worse did not happen because my vice principal was VERY strict against those who bullied me.I remember when some kids bullied me, she made them pick cigarette butts for 2 hours after school in the field.She also said that she would give bullies a good butt whoopin if she caught them...and that she didnt care if she loses her job as a result because she could just retire on her nice teachers pension and go to Mexico or Florida.Most of my teachers were kind and helpful.There were a few bad ones, but they were a small minority.

Basically, as far as any reform goes, it would have to be the teachers in many schools that need to learn to have more empathy, be more dedicated, and stand up for the weak instead of bullying them.


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09 Jan 2010, 9:47 am

VincentVanJones wrote:

My thoughts on those:

1. I have never had this problem.
2. That is not school specific... Police/LE/Fire etc response times could all use improvement.
3. I STRONGLY am against eliminating or limiting group projects, especially just for people who don't like them. Maybe make them optional (You can choose to group or not)
4. I agree 100%, but some kids need busy work to stay out of trouble.
5. That would mean I would still be in HS >.>
6. School food is pretty much universally toxic at most public schools. Many privates schools are just as bad though.
7. What kind of gym class did you have 0_o. Forward rolling on a hard floor for beginners is asking for injury... And if a kid has MR it will (or should) be on record and the teacher is not even allowed to let them is most cases
8. Yes it is a controversial idea, and one I think is bad. It may seem like that now, but all those kids who hate school, if allowed to skip... well there are a few scenarios:

The troublemakers would be out in the world causing more trouble
The kids who hate work will miss it
The kids who get stressed with school will not go
etc

You make it sound like everyone but a few want to learn and those few are the problem. Even people who want to learn, hated school, and thus would not have gone. If this was optional, class size would drop by at least 90% everywhere. Even if you don't want to be there, most people do get something out of it and it helps point a majority of people in the right direction who would otherwise fall to drugs/crime/nothing

9. What school, even one with no dress code, allows under wear and eyeball above crack tatoos to be shown? The moment to restrict it to anything more then this is bad. Dress code really should mean nothing extremely offense for clothing (shirts like "f**k the World" are fine, ones that say "f**k all Retards" are not) and minimum attire.

10. Sex ed is what it is, and is generally immature due to the students. And really, there are not enough Aspies in anyone location in general to even think that justifying the time/expense for a SEPARATE class.


You've definitely got good points about #'s 2 & 8. I dealt w/ #1 at least once a yr. for 3yrs... (why I've got issues w/ that) (worse it was either my friends or myself having panic attacks, etc.). I'm sorry if you were offended by #5 :oops: W/ #7 (my old gym class) the lifeskills class would bring their kids to workout w/ us (it was worse for me b/c my aunt was my gym teacher & my g-mom was sometimes their b/c she's an aide... 8O AWKWARD). The lifeskills staff knew my mom used to run a gym & would ask ME (I'm not trained HELLO) to teach the kids forward rolls (& my mom told me this could KILL THEM... me no wanna be sued!) #9... what school allowed basic near nudity & crack tattoos but searched all goths upon entering the building...mine :roll:. #10, your definitely right about no financial justification, but in my district they tax thousands of dollars for a new football stadium & skimp on academic stuff...specialized class for disabled students in this area would be a BETTER use than football (American). I think my family members working/living in the school/area for generations is why the issues were magnetized for me...


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Balance is needed within the universe, can be demonstrated in most/all concepts/things. Black/White, Good/Evil, etc.
All dependent upon your own perspective in your own form of existence, so trust your own gut and live the way YOU want/need to.


VincentVanJones
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09 Jan 2010, 10:37 pm

Peko wrote:
You've definitely got good points about #'s 2 & 8. I dealt w/ #1 at least once a yr. for 3yrs... (why I've got issues w/ that) (worse it was either my friends or myself having panic attacks, etc.). I'm sorry if you were offended by #5 :oops: W/ #7 (my old gym class) the lifeskills class would bring their kids to workout w/ us (it was worse for me b/c my aunt was my gym teacher & my g-mom was sometimes their b/c she's an aide... 8O AWKWARD). The lifeskills staff knew my mom used to run a gym & would ask ME (I'm not trained HELLO) to teach the kids forward rolls (& my mom told me this could KILL THEM... me no wanna be sued!) #9... what school allowed basic near nudity & crack tattoos but searched all goths upon entering the building...mine :roll:. #10, your definitely right about no financial justification, but in my district they tax thousands of dollars for a new football stadium & skimp on academic stuff...specialized class for disabled students in this area would be a BETTER use than football (American). I think my family members working/living in the school/area for generations is why the issues were magnetized for me...


Fair enough.

You know... I had a discussion about #10 in a way with somebody. I asked why the city I was in (at the time) had spent so much money to build the Civic Center when all that money could have been used for homeless/education supports.

He told me that I may be right in a base idea, and that it does cost the tax payers a large amount to build giant stadiums and such, but, the revenue and tourists makes up for it. If it cost 20 million up front, one might say why not just spend that on schools/shelters NOW. The reason is because that stadium will end up bringing in more then that and boost the local economy.

As for your question: It makes the school look good, and there are more Jocks then Autistics



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11 Jan 2010, 12:08 am

Peko wrote:
Reform ideas (based on my HS experiences):

3. Eliminate (or at least put severe limits on) group projects & lab work (also, don't automatically put HFA + Aspie w/ fine motor issues as Chem & advanced Bio lab partners b/c we'll "get along" :roll:) (I'm all for autistic people working together, but some things DON'T work...): if their are partner issues make it small group of 3-4 instead (so their should be at least 1-2 competent students)


I think #3 is a terrible idea. The point of school is to make avail of the opportunity for students not only to learn, but especially in science classes to practice what was learned out of a book. You can only learn so much by reading out of a book; there's a lot more to the topic when you see it and do it firsthand. You learn in high school and college, because out in the real world, you have to do it firsthand anyway, AND there is no room for mistakes. In exams and lab practicals, you can afford to get docked a few points for making mistakes. In the real world, make a lot of mistakes and you cost the company a lot of money and you will get fired. There's more at stake. Similarly, in the real world it is very rare to never have to work in groups, so you may as well take the opportunity in school to learn how to work in groups when the repercussions are relatively light... because again, in the real world, if you can't work well with other people, it won't bode well for you employment-wise. Even to make these things "optional" would dumb down the high school diploma to some extent, contradicting the "STOP the lazy passes" of #5.


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