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Lecks
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26 Jan 2010, 1:27 pm

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
Why is it so easy to love animals and not love humans? Humans are extraordinary animals.

Because animals, such as dogs, cats, birds,
need human companionship. It has been
this way for eons.


However, animals that are processed
for food have feelings and minds,
and writing/thinking about this
makes me sad. For example, no animal
would naturally drink the milk
of another animal beyond weaning age
and no animal would naturally
eat the flesh of another animal
with high cholestrol content.

GO ASPIE VEGETARIANS/VEGANS! You guys rock!

Because it was bred into them, by humans. Animals aren't naturally dependant on humans for survival or any projected emotional need (ie: companionship, love, etc.). The only reason pets exhibit this dependance is because they've been raised/bred to do so.

The existence of packs of wild domesticated dogs is proof of that.



Meadow
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26 Jan 2010, 1:49 pm

Lecks wrote:
AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
Why is it so easy to love animals and not love humans? Humans are extraordinary animals.

Because animals, such as dogs, cats, birds,
need human companionship. It has been
this way for eons.


However, animals that are processed
for food have feelings and minds,
and writing/thinking about this
makes me sad. For example, no animal
would naturally drink the milk
of another animal beyond weaning age
and no animal would naturally
eat the flesh of another animal
with high cholestrol content.

GO ASPIE VEGETARIANS/VEGANS! You guys rock!

Because it was bred into them, by humans. Animals aren't naturally dependant on humans for survival or any projected emotional need (ie: companionship, love, etc.). The only reason pets exhibit this dependance is because they've been raised/bred to do so.

The existence of packs of wild domesticated dogs is proof of that.


Why do you assume that "wild" excludes a need for companionship, etc.? In wolves, for example, if the pack leader rejects one of its pack and the other animals follow suit, the lone wolf becomes dejected, not unlike depression, and likewise doesn't survive, thrive or flourish well on its own and often times will die that way left to its own.



Lecks
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26 Jan 2010, 5:43 pm

Meadow wrote:
Lecks wrote:
Because it was bred into them, by humans. Animals aren't naturally dependant on humans for survival or any projected emotional need (ie: companionship, love, etc.). The only reason pets exhibit this dependance is because they've been raised/bred to do so.

The existence of packs of wild domesticated dogs is proof of that.


Why do you assume that "wild" excludes a need for companionship, etc.? In wolves, for example, if the pack leader rejects one of its pack and the other animals follow suit, the lone wolf becomes dejected, not unlike depression, and likewise doesn't survive, thrive or flourish well on its own and often times will die that way left to its own.

So you propose that animals have a similar emotion to our companionship that's unrelated to it's basic instict to survive?

If a wolf gets disowned by it's pack, then the natural conclusion is that it will die. Perhaps, in part, because of what you say but largely because it knows only how to hunt in a group. If left alone it has no previous experience to call upon and is unable to catch enough prey to survive (unless it manages to find a human settlement for scavenging).



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26 Jan 2010, 6:25 pm

^I have seen animals very well appear to be grieving for the loss of their owner, for example, and there are countless examples where we can see an animal being hurt, rejected, angry, desperate. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Why shouldn't they feel when we do? Or, some of us do anyway.



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26 Jan 2010, 6:28 pm

It seems to be human nature to look at an animal's feelings or existence as less important or lower than our own.

I'm often surprised in how some people including religionists believe an animal has no soul or ie sentience. I think it's strange in what how we view most life forms from a non-pragmatic point of view.


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Meadow
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26 Jan 2010, 6:33 pm

^ I must not be all that human then because I can't see it that way at all.



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26 Jan 2010, 6:47 pm

Meadow wrote:
^ I must not be all that human then because I can't see it that way at all.


Me neither.

I knew I was always different even as a child.


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26 Jan 2010, 7:08 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
Meadow wrote:
^ I must not be all that human then because I can't see it that way at all.


Me neither.

I knew I was always different even as a child.


Me too... Image



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26 Jan 2010, 7:11 pm

Meadow wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
Meadow wrote:
^ I must not be all that human then because I can't see it that way at all.


Me neither.

I knew I was always different even as a child.


Me too... Image


me three...


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Meadow
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26 Jan 2010, 7:49 pm

Magnus wrote:
Meadow wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
Meadow wrote:
^ I must not be all that human then because I can't see it that way at all.


Me neither.

I knew I was always different even as a child.


Me too... Image


me three...


Image meow... Magnus



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26 Jan 2010, 8:31 pm

Magnus wrote:
Yeah, I don't like mosquitoes. I don't mind killing them. Why the hostility toward vegans tho?
You'll just get fat and constipated if you eat too much meat. It's not hurting me, just yourself.
My hostility towards vegans comes from the fact that they keep telling me what to eat. There's also that strange need to point out they are morally superior just because they prefer to kill animals by the extermination of their habitat and the consumption of their food rather than by eating them.

I will keep eating meat for the time being, and I balance it with other meals. Since my food is more balanced it is a ton of times healthier than the vegetables-only diet.


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26 Jan 2010, 8:35 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Yeah, I don't like mosquitoes. I don't mind killing them. Why the hostility toward vegans tho?
You'll just get fat and constipated if you eat too much meat. It's not hurting me, just yourself.
My hostility towards vegans comes from the fact that they keep telling me what to eat. There's also that strange need to point out they are morally superior just because they prefer to kill animals by the extermination of their habitat and the consumption of their food rather than by eating them.

I will keep eating meat for the time being, and I balance it with other meals. Since my food is more balanced it is a ton of times healthier than the vegetables-only diet.


I hope I wasn't too hostile with you. :?


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techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jan 2010, 9:20 pm

Meadow wrote:
^I have seen animals very well appear to be grieving for the loss of their owner, for example, and there are countless examples where we can see an animal being hurt, rejected, angry, desperate. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Why shouldn't they feel when we do? Or, some of us do anyway.

I think its fairly safe to say that we are animals - soul or no soul - and that while people can draw a lot of comfort and even health benefits from having warm relationship to a pet like say a cat or dog, its important to keep in perspective that it is a matter of heirarchy. We're providing something - I guess you could look at part of that relationship as the joy of being a provider, a bit like being a parent, but at the same its important to realize that animal behavior can't be praised that much over human, when someone does make that break and loves animals to the exclusion of humans, its something of a fantasized sense of reality and it usually comes at the cost of further, and unnecessarily, damaging their interactions and empathy for other people.


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26 Jan 2010, 9:35 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Meadow wrote:
^I have seen animals very well appear to be grieving for the loss of their owner, for example, and there are countless examples where we can see an animal being hurt, rejected, angry, desperate. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Why shouldn't they feel when we do? Or, some of us do anyway.

I think its fairly safe to say that we are animals - soul or no soul - and that while people can draw a lot of comfort and even health benefits from having warm relationship to a pet like say a cat or dog, its important to keep in perspective that it is a matter of heirarchy. We're providing something - I guess you could look at part of that relationship as the joy of being a provider, a bit like being a parent, but at the same its important to realize that animal behavior can't be praised that much over human, when someone does make that break and loves animals to the exclusion of humans, its something of a fantasized sense of reality and it usually comes at the cost of further, and unnecessarily, damaging their interactions and empathy for other people.


My empathy for people is definitely damaged, so you have that right. I don't have any praise for humans at this point and animals can be a pain too in their own way but by far a much lesser degree than humans so I can't agree with you on that one. I'm much safer, happier and healthier now with my current perspective and I don't see that changing. If it does happen well then, maybe some healing will have taken place but I won't hold my breath on it. :)



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26 Jan 2010, 9:39 pm

Meadow wrote:
My empathy for people is definitely damaged, so you have that right. I don't have any praise for humans at this point and animals can be a pain too in their own way but by far a much lesser degree than humans so I can't agree with you on that one. I'm much safer, happier and healthier now with my current perspective and I don't see that changing. If it does happen well then, maybe some healing will have taken place but I won't hold my breath on it. :)

That's fine so long as you aren't blocking great and loving people from your life along with the rest.


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