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What's your opinion?
I didn't understand anything 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
It happens but it's rare 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
I prefer to think it's not true 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
What you describe doesn't exist 11%  11%  [ 3 ]
Duh! 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Other _________________________________________________________ 41%  41%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 27

Vivienne
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20 Jan 2010, 11:37 pm

I vehemently disagree.
I don't even know where to start.

Are there 'groups' with a 'leader' withing social packs? Yes.
Are these groups automatically 'against' outsiders? NO.

These groups, as you have given examples, are FAMILIES. If there is a single leader, they did not achieve that position by evil deeds, but by being recognized as the most intelligent, most capable, most loving (for they so love their family that they would risk conflict, argument, and disharmony in order to protect one member -can you say you have done that for someone? - ) of the members.

Everyone has weaknesses, within a family the one most capable of keeping everyones lives smooth is the one in charge.

In essence, a family is based on LOVE. It is not a power trip that runs the family, but love and concern for others within the family. So yes, a family tradition is more important than a field trip with a friend - because it is tradition. It is part of your identity in that family. It is blood relatives that would like to see you and find out how you are faring in life. It is what makes the bond thick.

Families protect you from dangers you may not even know you are close to. The "creepy" boyfriend. The tendency to party too much. The failing grades at school. The disrespectful attitude. The depression, withdrawal from activities.
All these things are opened up and adjusted during family functions.

Everyone in the family has a chance to leave the "world" and regroup and remember what is important in life. Relationships, children, homes.

Now, here is where you say to yourself "I have AS, I'm not included in that, I don't understand that, so I hate that". Ask yourself truly, have you never been invited? Or have you declined such invitations?
Chances are, unless (like me) your family was completely dysfunctional with an alcoholic/crackhead/depressed parent or two, you HAVE been invited. But for your own reasons you didn't want to join in.

I'm sorry but, the pure hatred I hear on this site towards NT people is really starting to piss me off. There are so many things in this world we can't understand, but one rule I go by is "different isn't bad, different isn't evil, different is just different".

I have know so many NT people who have dedicated their lives to understanding and accepting people with differences; and it's really not fair to find such a wonderful group of people - only to find out that some of them hold this bitterness to a WHOLE GROUP of people based on their personal experiences with one or two NT's.

You may call a family a "pyramid" because it suits your bigotry, but you are alone in your hatred.

"Pyramids are a lifestyle, a choice. Yet the Autistic has no choice - he can't belong. "

This is bull. Pyramids are a group. To belong to a group you only need to recognize that you have similarities with a few other people. Naturally, if you feel connected in the similarities, you'll want to stay near those people. You might even ask them for advice, or their opinions. A person with Autism may not belong in an NT group, but, as this website is testament to; a person with autism can very well find a group to belong to. And they belong. And they ask them for advice, or opinions.

Well you have mine.
Will you take it?


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21 Jan 2010, 5:25 am

Vivienne wrote:
I vehemently disagree.
I'm sorry but, the pure hatred I hear on this site towards NT people is really starting to piss me off. There are so many things in this world we can't understand, but one rule I go by is "different isn't bad, different isn't evil, different is just different".


Vivienne, I understand that you might think we're unfairly ragging on NTs here. But for many of us, it's not just "one or two" experiences that leave us wondering why we experience such a disproportionate amount of ugliness from the NT world.

The issue isn't whether we're being prejudiced toward NTs. Heck, they'll do just fine regardless of what we think of them. Greentea is giving her perceptions of what she herself has experienced. If that makes people look bad, well, is it really Greentea's fault or the fault of the people she's encountered? I know that not all people are "evil" or whatnot. But if that's the most you've encountered, that's what filter you will use to judge subsequent interactions.

Greentea, you've experienced so much hurt and betrayal throughout your life. You probably think that being part of a group must be inherently painful and you have to give up who you are and be miserable just to be accepted. However, healthy groups allow for curiosity, independence and all the things you value. Groups that don't are not only disfunctional, but toxic to the soul as well and there are, unfortunately, many like that.

Being a part of a group that's nurturing and healing is a matter of finding the right people to hang with. It may take a long, looong time to fight through the gauntlet of disfunctional relationships to find them but they do exist.


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21 Jan 2010, 7:48 am

I think you're more or less correct, Greentea.

Groups are nearly always hierarchies, and leaders are nearly always corrupt. In fact I can't think of even one example of a group that isn't a hierarchy, or one leader who is entirely benevolent. Most people seem to accept this situation as inevitable, but for some reason I still rail at it. I "go along" with hierarchies to some extent, because I seem to have no choice, and I protect myself from their wrath I keep quiet about a lot of my misgivings. But if I had the choice, I'd have no part of any group that had leaders. Who would work for a boss if they didn't need the money? The term "bossy" is a pejorative term for a very good reason - it's demeaning for a human being to be pushed around like that. Yet bosses still exist, and insensitive, controlling powers continue to fly above our heads. I tend to agree with the Anarchist notion that "in authority there is always hate."

But I don't know what it would be like to be neurotypical and to not have the Aspie suspicion of authority figures, to not find it scary whenever anybody else has an involvement in a task I'm trying to do. I don''t know how many of my bad experiences with the bigwigs have been caused by a mutual ignorance of my disability.



Greentea
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21 Jan 2010, 8:19 am

TD, I don't think being aware that you're Autistic would make your membership to a pyramid more possible. The last thing a pyramid can afford is someone who says the king is nude, for example. Or someone oblivious to and slow at understanding of the maze of hierarchies (which are not formal and therefore their nuances fluctuate and require a very high level of complex intuitive detection and adaptation). And many other traits. We can't; by definition of Autism. If we could, we wouldn't be Autistic.


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21 Jan 2010, 8:25 am

Other posters have examined this thoroughly and disagree and I have nothing to add to that but an example: Wrong Planet.

Wrong Planet is a group that everybody here has chosen to join for its support. It does follow your pyramidal structure in that at its top is its creator who has the power to shut the site down at any time, leaving people without its emotional protection. Is he evil? No. Does he have ultimate power over the group? Yes. Because it exists only as long as he continues to maintain the site. Following the pyramid structure are the moderators directly below him. They can't wink the site out of existence as he can but they can yank posts and posters. Are they evil? No. The power they wield is for the good of all to prevent Wrong Planet from turning into a hostile arena where people feel too intimidated to post.


There are rules (stated at the top of the forum) which all must abide by or made to leave the group. So that fits in with your "threat of being made to leave the group if you don't conform" model.

And yet, Wrong Planet is by all accounts a helpful, benevolent group which follows your pyramid model without devolving into evil. The rules people follow are for mutual protection of all posters and nobody (except a couple posters in some memorable threads) feels that this moderation of post content that all must abide by is a force for evil even though it is a rule system that must be followed or the member must leave the group.



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21 Jan 2010, 8:42 am

Thank you all for your comments so far!! ! Looking forward to more.

I think I should clarify, thought, that what I'm trying to prove wrong is the following statement:

Almost everyone chooses to belong to a pyramid for protection against sudden misfortune in exchange for their soul.


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Last edited by Greentea on 21 Jan 2010, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

arielhawksquill
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21 Jan 2010, 9:13 am

I don't think anyone could argue that pyramids DON'T EXIST--some things are definitely organized that way, including governments, churches, the Mafia...

All anyone could prove is that there are groups which are NOT pyramids, but are egalitarian and cooperative like a kibbutz or a trade union, or groups like families which may be held together by love rather than by fear.



Greentea
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21 Jan 2010, 9:39 am

Thanks, Ariel. I just corrected the confusion in my previous post and clarified.

I've now clarified in my OP as well.

Could everyone please answer the OP all over again now that it's correctly enunciated? Sorry for the confusion... :( :( :(


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Janissy
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21 Jan 2010, 9:58 am

Janissy wrote:
Other posters have examined this thoroughly and disagree and I have nothing to add to that but an example: Wrong Planet.

Wrong Planet is a group that everybody here has chosen to join for its support. It does follow your pyramidal structure in that at its top is its creator who has the power to shut the site down at any time, leaving people without its emotional protection. Is he evil? No. Does he have ultimate power over the group? Yes. Because it exists only as long as he continues to maintain the site. Following the pyramid structure are the moderators directly below him. They can't wink the site out of existence as he can but they can yank posts and posters. Are they evil? No. The power they wield is for the good of all to prevent Wrong Planet from turning into a hostile arena where people feel too intimidated to post.


There are rules (stated at the top of the forum) which all must abide by or made to leave the group. So that fits in with your "threat of being made to leave the group if you don't conform" model.

And yet, Wrong Planet is by all accounts a helpful, benevolent group which follows your pyramid model without devolving into evil. The rules people follow are for mutual protection of all posters and nobody (except a couple posters in some memorable threads) feels that this moderation of post content that all must abide by is a force for evil even though it is a rule system that must be followed or the member must leave the group.


I'm quoting myself so I won't have to re-type. Wrong Planet itself is an example of a pyramidal group which asks for nobody's soul- only for conformity with the rules. That's all that most groups ask for- conformity to the rules. Cults are an obvious exception, but they are an exception and not the rule. If you really believed that it was selling your soul to conform to rules in order to maintain membership in the protective group, then you wouldn't be posting here. The rules are quite strict although not unreasonable and the penalty for not conforming is banning: expulsion from the group. In exchange, the Wrong Planet group offers emotional protection (to the extent that it can) for people who thought nobody could ever understand them. The rules- like many rules enforced on a group- aren't soul selling but rather in place for mutual protection of all members.



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21 Jan 2010, 10:15 am

Greentea wrote:
I remember when 25 years ago, we young, pretty and broke immigrant girls without families in the country were often approached with offers of cages of gold. Orthodox religious families, pyramidal families, etc. would try to charm us into the golden life of leisure and luxury where all we had to give in return was never rebel against the pyramid, accept everything about it without questioning, worship the top leader unswervingly however evil. A life of jewelry-purchasing at nights in the Duty Free stores of the world airports while on the way to the upteenth turquoise water island 5-star resort, with kids, husband and 2 nannies so the kids wouldn't disturb our tanning and spa sessions. No career needed, no frantic looking for parking to go to a job interview, no being fired and having to pay rent, just be pretty and dumb and be ready to betray even your mother, lack integrity and fairness and compassion for others completely and you'll have a life of shelter from any misfortune - because we have the money and the connections (ie the power) to assure you this.

This is how my friend the fun unconformist once appeared at school wearing pantyhose in extremely hot summer weather (she was marrying into a rich, orthodox family, her new values were only the values of the patriarch at the top, no more creative exploration, no more personal convictions or acts or logical dressing). Those were the signs your friends were being enlisted in different pyramids. It'd start showing in their new behaviors that contradicted everything they'd been till a week or two before. They'd been charmed into the idea of the easy, sheltered life of being owned.

I don't think a pyramid lifestyle or an independent one are better than the other. They both have advantages and disadvantages. When life gets rougher than usual, I long for some pyramid. But when I had one I often felt I was living a farse, I felt no motivation, and I was constantly nauseated by the things that were expected from me to serve the pyramid and the top leader.


Take the money and run like crazy topic

Some people are so security conscious that they would rather be free of economic troubles than do their own thing, and think for themselves. This is what drives people to do stupid things like sneak drugs through customs, and gamble mortgage money to win a lottery. What is even stupider is that these schemes, like the pyramind ponzi thingy, are so risky to health, mental/physical freedom. People make dumb choices, like those women you speak of who submit to religious fanaticism for silver and gold. I have a theory about such people: they are shallow anyway, and don a fanatical costume for the same reason. For example, many nazis became part of that evil regime not because so much for antisemitism (though that was a big factor) but because they wanted some financial security and saw it as a way of lining their own pockets, by theft, contracts, jobs, political posiitons and the like. Utilitarianism can be just as evil. And at the end of WWII many 'ex-nazis' (officially ex, anyway :roll: ) just went on to serve new governments in as lucrative a style as they could find, in any country that would harbour them. In other words, money can buy them. Now this is extreme, but a more common thing that people do is to tow the party line for plum jobs (this is more common in Canada than many would realize) like 'crossing the floor' of the Canadian Parliament to change political stripes for cabinet position offers from the other party. You have probably heard of this in your own country. Shallow Hals and Helens--all of them. :evil:

It is very rare that any of us would not think a bit before giving up a so-called golden opportunity. Of course, I have never had one, but like you, I would be skeptical. :wink:


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21 Jan 2010, 10:45 am

Greentea wrote:
TD, I don't think being aware that you're Autistic would make your membership to a pyramid more possible. The last thing a pyramid can afford is someone who says the king is nude, for example. Or someone oblivious to and slow at understanding of the maze of hierarchies (which are not formal and therefore their nuances fluctuate and require a very high level of complex intuitive detection and adaptation). And many other traits. We can't; by definition of Autism. If we could, we wouldn't be Autistic.

Once I knew I had AS, I could clearly see why I couldn't meet some of my employer's demands, and when I told them of my DX, those demands were largely withdrawn. One supervisor actually said "that explains everything." 8) I'm not saying that AS ignorance was the reason for all my woes at work, but knowledge of AS has definitely taken a lot of the stress out of the job. Still, I suspect that it hasn't been a pure case of understanding leading to tolerance and peace. More likely the management is secretly scared of a discrimination lawsuit and has cut me some slack in order to cover their backs. I think I've just played a good card in my continuing war with them rather than truly resolving anything. I still don't want to be included in their pyramid.....I thought I might lose my contempt for the job once the pressure was off, but I haven't. I feel safer, but these are not my people, and apart from a very few individuals, I can hardly wait to get away from them.



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21 Jan 2010, 10:47 am

Vivienne wrote:
I'm sorry but, the pure hatred I hear on this site towards NT people is really starting to piss me off. There are so many things in this world we can't understand, but one rule I go by is "different isn't bad, different isn't evil, different is just different".

It's not the site in genera, it's just a few people. And those few people are rather easy to recognize once you realize it-- they themselves do the things that they accuse others of doing. No site is without people who want to stir up trouble. Please don't accuse the site of the hatred that you see coming from a few people.



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21 Jan 2010, 11:05 am

Greentea wrote:
what I'm trying to prove wrong is the following statement:

Almost everyone chooses to belong to a pyramid for protection against sudden misfortune in exchange for their soul.


My own case doesn't disprove that......in many ways I did choose to stick with working for salary, though if I were to leave prematurely then it would be more a case of gradual, predictable hardship (as my savings slowly ran out) rather than sudden misfortune. And your phrase "in exchange for their soul" rings very true for me. Kind of ironic, because I don't believe in souls, but I feel very strongly that the job has somehow pushed me to one side of my life, which I think is much the same thing.



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21 Jan 2010, 11:19 am

Quote:
The last thing a pyramid can afford is someone who says the king is nude, for example. Or someone oblivious to and slow at understanding of the maze of hierarchies (which are not formal and therefore their nuances fluctuate and require a very high level of complex intuitive detection and adaptation). And many other traits. We can't; by definition of Autism. If we could, we wouldn't be Autistic.


The last thing that THAT king might afford; you make a generalization that cannot be substantiated. I disagree - we can, albeit impaired or affected. But to dismiss what we CAN do, regardless of how differently we accomplish those things, is a worse act than hierarchical structure.

Greentea wrote:
Thank you all for your comments so far!! ! Looking forward to more.

I think I should clarify, thought, that what I'm trying to prove wrong is the following statement:

Almost everyone chooses to belong to a pyramid for protection against sudden misfortune in exchange for their soul.


Your statement is unprovable in the first place... not to be rude, but the soul is not quantifiable and therefore not subject to observation on the basis of exchange or trade. Some people join such a structure for security, others for protection, others for socio-economical reasons, others still working for their own purposes while circumventing those in power. Again, it appears that you are projecting your own experience upon the canvas as the sole reason why people behave in that manner.


M.


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21 Jan 2010, 11:29 am

Good and Evil are concepts, which can only exist relative to something which is concerned with such rules, and as everyone has a diffrent way of measuring Good and Evil, the top of your pyramid will be diffrent for every single person on the planet. Plus the fact that Evolution is not concerned with Good and Evil, they dont really exist, except in the mind of the person who feels the need to justify their actions.