Why does Israel matter to the United States?

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Sand
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17 Feb 2010, 8:00 am

Omerik wrote:
Sand wrote:
Although there is an element of manifest destiny in the acceptance of Israel as a legitimate state in the old Jewish sense of having been especially chosen by God, probably much of the main substance of much of the support is derived from the abysmally horrible insane persecution of the Jews by the Nazis and the resulting world guilt and acceptance that there should be adequate compensation. In general the Jews of the world have demonstrated great intellectual capacity and a cohesive cultural tradition that is somewhat absent from the other groups that were also frightfully persecuted by the Nazis such as the gypsies and the homosexuals. The Nazis, of course, merely carried forward and intensified the centuries old traditions of Jewish persecution that formed part of the doctrines of the Christian Catholic Church so there is much guilt well distributed. The Israelis, as distinct from all Jews in general, have used this guilt as a cultural weapon continuously and with great success to disparage the efforts of the Palestinians to defend themselves and protest at the thievery and open brutality of the Israeli government is taking over the land area claimed by Israel. I do not defend the random killings by the Muslim suicide bombers but their impact is negligible as compared to the official Israeli brutality of the Israeli government against mostly innocent and relatively defenseless Palestinians with modern aggressive weaponry.

Of course this is only one element in the conflict and there are economic and political policies also in he mix which use the cultural element to merely re-enforce their underlying policies.

Seriously, people here have no idea what they're talking about.
Zionism began before the holocaust, as a secular movement, sick of racism. They weren't even sure what land to incorporate, and Herzl himself first proposed that all Jews in Europe baptise themselves to stop this BS.
I have a lot of criticism on Zionism myself, trust me, I just don't have the time to write it all right now.
But for short - Zionism is secular, and a response to pre-War antisemitism. Both my grandparents were sent to Israel by their parents, because they were afraid of Hitler - before anything happens.
As for the "thievery", if you mean the whole idea of settling here - well, the Jews accepted the partition plan. The Palestinians didn't. That's why the war started, that's why got more land than offered by the UN. Now, with all do respect, some Palestinian leaders themselves admitted that the Zionists invented the nationality "Palestinian". They were just arabs, with no national sense they way we did. It's not wrong, it's even better, just that they were ruled by other nations.

(And no, that's not excuse for what's being done today. Just a bit more historical accuracy please)

Sand wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
  • There is a sizable Jewish population in the United States.
  • Many evangelical Christians see the existence of the State of Israel as part of some divine prophesy.
  • Israel is considered to be one of the few democratic countries in the Middle East.
  • Israel is strategically located near Arab countries rich in oil reserves.


Although Israel is an openly racist state with regular comments by its leaders of exiling all Arabs who originally inhabited the area I suppose the USA that did in the past also officially in many states treated black people the same way and was still considered a democracy can accept that type of behavior. But the last item is interesting. Does that mean the USA is considering a military takeover of all the Middle East oil?

I'm glad if you can show me which leaders "regularly" speak about exiling anyone.
If you're talking about the descendants of people who fled the Israeli territory - as an Anarchist, I think they can live wherever they want. However, not all Jews who fled Europe get their citizenship back. Why don't you speak against them?

That being said, trust me that my government's actions bother me more than they bother you.
Still, at least blame them over correct things.


See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9428.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02291.html
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/internation ... ism-israel
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook02052010.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/clark02042010.html
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3993033



Omerik
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17 Feb 2010, 11:35 am

It's a funny thing, you know. I've met Arab people, great human beings, and we spoke about our different cultures and beliefs. And in the end, they said the despise the Israeli regime, but have no problem with Jews living here. I said the same - I despise the same regime, and have no problem with Arabs living here.

And Sand - your comment has nothing to do with mine.
If you really want to study about Zionism, I am more then willing to show you the theories of the leaders of Zionism, about how we should live together with Arabs in a socialist society. You show me things like the crazy idea of transfer - do you even know how most Jews feel about this horrible idea?

Regarding Lieberman - a disgrace for the human race. A terrible fascist, despised by many people here, unfortunately not enough.

I'm not going to comment about the theory that the Jewish identity is "fake" - because I partially agree, yet I know by tradition that I'm an Aaronite, and genetic studies show that most people who claim so have similar genetic traits. What's wrong about wanting to get back to the land you dream about? And please don't tell me how I feel as a Jew.
The only problem is that people think it says we should kick everyone out of our land - well, my grandfather was in the Hagana, which consisted the vast majority of settlers, and he didn't fight, but embraced secularism, peace and socialism. Until this day, he hates the Etzel and the Lekhi, and claims the 1967 occupation only got us trouble, and we should let them form their own country. Most Israelis think so.

It's funny that my Arab friends respect me wanting to live here, and trust me, but you don't. And you know none of us.



Sand
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17 Feb 2010, 12:04 pm

Omerik wrote:
It's a funny thing, you know. I've met Arab people, great human beings, and we spoke about our different cultures and beliefs. And in the end, they said the despise the Israeli regime, but have no problem with Jews living here. I said the same - I despise the same regime, and have no problem with Arabs living here.

And Sand - your comment has nothing to do with mine.
If you really want to study about Zionism, I am more then willing to show you the theories of the leaders of Zionism, about how we should live together with Arabs in a socialist society. You show me things like the crazy idea of transfer - do you even know how most Jews feel about this horrible idea?

Regarding Lieberman - a disgrace for the human race. A terrible fascist, despised by many people here, unfortunately not enough.

I'm not going to comment about the theory that the Jewish identity is "fake" - because I partially agree, yet I know by tradition that I'm an Aaronite, and genetic studies show that most people who claim so have similar genetic traits. What's wrong about wanting to get back to the land you dream about? And please don't tell me how I feel as a Jew.
The only problem is that people think it says we should kick everyone out of our land - well, my grandfather was in the Hagana, which consisted the vast majority of settlers, and he didn't fight, but embraced secularism, peace and socialism. Until this day, he hates the Etzel and the Lekhi, and claims the 1967 occupation only got us trouble, and we should let them form their own country. Most Israelis think so.

It's funny that my Arab friends respect me wanting to live here, and trust me, but you don't. And you know none of us.


I lived in Israel for two years and I have a certain comprehension of the situation.



Omerik
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17 Feb 2010, 12:21 pm

Sand wrote:
Omerik wrote:
It's a funny thing, you know. I've met Arab people, great human beings, and we spoke about our different cultures and beliefs. And in the end, they said the despise the Israeli regime, but have no problem with Jews living here. I said the same - I despise the same regime, and have no problem with Arabs living here.

And Sand - your comment has nothing to do with mine.
If you really want to study about Zionism, I am more then willing to show you the theories of the leaders of Zionism, about how we should live together with Arabs in a socialist society. You show me things like the crazy idea of transfer - do you even know how most Jews feel about this horrible idea?

Regarding Lieberman - a disgrace for the human race. A terrible fascist, despised by many people here, unfortunately not enough.

I'm not going to comment about the theory that the Jewish identity is "fake" - because I partially agree, yet I know by tradition that I'm an Aaronite, and genetic studies show that most people who claim so have similar genetic traits. What's wrong about wanting to get back to the land you dream about? And please don't tell me how I feel as a Jew.
The only problem is that people think it says we should kick everyone out of our land - well, my grandfather was in the Hagana, which consisted the vast majority of settlers, and he didn't fight, but embraced secularism, peace and socialism. Until this day, he hates the Etzel and the Lekhi, and claims the 1967 occupation only got us trouble, and we should let them form their own country. Most Israelis think so.

It's funny that my Arab friends respect me wanting to live here, and trust me, but you don't. And you know none of us.


I lived in Israel for two years and I have a certain comprehension of the situation.

I know people who lived here and were in contact with liberal people, and think Israelis are all liberal... Other than that, I know people who are Israelis and live here for their whole lives and know nothing...

Where did you live? And you seriously didn't notice that the racism isn't Jews vs Arabs, rather Europeans vs everyone else?



conan
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17 Feb 2010, 5:34 pm

as far as i can see the israeli government has persecuted Palestinians. Although at this stage it is unrealistic to give them back all the land that was stolen i do think the excessive occupation and blatant abuse of human rights should end. the Palestinians are unable to do anything without israels consent. I have heard to many things about the sickening tactics used by the israeli government.

israel also have not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty. they are the only country in the world to get away with this. I'm not entirely sure of americas reasons for supporting israel, i do think much of it is the "jewish vote" and possibly lobbyists. I would not say they control the media or financial institutes, sure there may be a higher percentage but that does not equate to total control.

it makes me so mad sometimes that some people think the israelis are the ones who are suffering at the hands of the palestinians. the media coverage of this is appaling in most countries. it is shameful that such an injustice is not sorted out.



Omerik
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18 Feb 2010, 11:04 am

conan wrote:
as far as i can see the israeli government has persecuted Palestinians. Although at this stage it is unrealistic to give them back all the land that was stolen i do think the excessive occupation and blatant abuse of human rights should end. the Palestinians are unable to do anything without israels consent. I have heard to many things about the sickening tactics used by the israeli government.

israel also have not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty. they are the only country in the world to get away with this. I'm not entirely sure of americas reasons for supporting israel, i do think much of it is the "jewish vote" and possibly lobbyists. I would not say they control the media or financial institutes, sure there may be a higher percentage but that does not equate to total control.

it makes me so mad sometimes that some people think the israelis are the ones who are suffering at the hands of the palestinians. the media coverage of this is appaling in most countries. it is shameful that such an injustice is not sorted out.

When I speak to my non-Israeli friends from Europe, they say the media mostly shows the suffer of the Palestinians - it's just, as they are the ones who suffer more than us. No complaints here.

I do think that people fail to understand the history of this conflict - and I'm also talking about Jews and Arabs. People just don't study, and don't listen to each other. People for example ignore the fact that we didn't start this conflict, but some Arab fascists. We had our own, but they were mostly kicked outside the mainstream. Later, as threat from the Arabs continued, Jews began to be more aggressive, to the point where they don't even listen to the other side. So now the Arabs suffer - as an Israeli Jew, it hurts me to see this, believe me. I'm not happy of this done in my name. I do see that when Arabs and Jews listen to each other, they understand the other side's motivations better.

That's like Croatians and Serbs each massacred one another at different times - now "we" massacre "them". Instead of trying to be the stronger side, we should try to achieve peace. None of the sides tries strong enough. Fortunately, polls show that as the wars go on, most Jews, who at first favoured two states and later on didn't count on Arabs, now support it again. Arabs living in Israel hate it less, and Palestinians in the West Bank are less violent, because they live better than the ones in Gaza. People in Gaza are violent because they have nothing to lose.

I always tell my Israeli friends - you see that the better the Arabs live, they less they hate you. So why don't encourage better life in Gaza? It's good for everyone. Not only from a humanist point of view (which I support), but it means less wars and death for you. I once set with a few Arab students in the University, and a guy who supports my exact positions on peace and coexistence was angry at a girl who didn't want to listen to me - he insisted she should listen. We should all listen. Most of us don't.

DISCLAIMER: That's not to excuse the Israeli aggression. I didn't serve in the army. That's to explain the motivations behind it. You have to understand the motivations for the hatred if you want to fight the hatred.



Tensu
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18 Feb 2010, 2:35 pm

I thought you had to serve in the army in Israel. is this not true?



conan
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18 Feb 2010, 4:28 pm

Omerik wrote:
conan wrote:
as far as i can see the israeli government has persecuted Palestinians. Although at this stage it is unrealistic to give them back all the land that was stolen i do think the excessive occupation and blatant abuse of human rights should end. the Palestinians are unable to do anything without israels consent. I have heard to many things about the sickening tactics used by the israeli government.

israel also have not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty. they are the only country in the world to get away with this. I'm not entirely sure of americas reasons for supporting israel, i do think much of it is the "jewish vote" and possibly lobbyists. I would not say they control the media or financial institutes, sure there may be a higher percentage but that does not equate to total control.

it makes me so mad sometimes that some people think the israelis are the ones who are suffering at the hands of the palestinians. the media coverage of this is appaling in most countries. it is shameful that such an injustice is not sorted out.

When I speak to my non-Israeli friends from Europe, they say the media mostly shows the suffer of the Palestinians - it's just, as they are the ones who suffer more than us. No complaints here.

I do think that people fail to understand the history of this conflict - and I'm also talking about Jews and Arabs. People just don't study, and don't listen to each other. People for example ignore the fact that we didn't start this conflict, but some Arab fascists. We had our own, but they were mostly kicked outside the mainstream. Later, as threat from the Arabs continued, Jews began to be more aggressive, to the point where they don't even listen to the other side. So now the Arabs suffer - as an Israeli Jew, it hurts me to see this, believe me. I'm not happy of this done in my name. I do see that when Arabs and Jews listen to each other, they understand the other side's motivations better.

That's like Croatians and Serbs each massacred one another at different times - now "we" massacre "them". Instead of trying to be the stronger side, we should try to achieve peace. None of the sides tries strong enough. Fortunately, polls show that as the wars go on, most Jews, who at first favoured two states and later on didn't count on Arabs, now support it again. Arabs living in Israel hate it less, and Palestinians in the West Bank are less violent, because they live better than the ones in Gaza. People in Gaza are violent because they have nothing to lose.

I always tell my Israeli friends - you see that the better the Arabs live, they less they hate you. So why don't encourage better life in Gaza? It's good for everyone. Not only from a humanist point of view (which I support), but it means less wars and death for you. I once set with a few Arab students in the University, and a guy who supports my exact positions on peace and coexistence was angry at a girl who didn't want to listen to me - he insisted she should listen. We should all listen. Most of us don't.

DISCLAIMER: That's not to excuse the Israeli aggression. I didn't serve in the army. That's to explain the motivations behind it. You have to understand the motivations for the hatred if you want to fight the hatred.



it is right that in britain at least that the palestinians are seen as the persecuted. I do believe israel has been allowed to get away with far to many war crimes though. It is really interesting what you said, you obviously have a very well informed perspective.



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18 Feb 2010, 4:53 pm

conan wrote:
it is right that in britain at least that the palestinians are seen as the persecuted. I do believe israel has been allowed to get away with far to many war crimes though. It is really interesting what you said, you obviously have a very well informed perspective.

Many countries get away with war crimes. The focus is on Israel because it's considered more developed than other nations, and pretty much "western". Plus, unlike Russia and the USA, Israel is not strong enough to make people shut their mouth, and brainwash the whole world. And that's a good thing, don't get me wrong, I'm glad we don't have this power. I'm glad other countries pressure us.

The thing is, people tend to dichotomy. You say yourself that you give thought to what I said, and I'm happy about it. That's what the world needs to understand, the Israelis need to understand, and the Palestinians need to understand.

That's how come figures I respect, such as Arab-Israeli author and journalist Sayed Kashua, are conidered anti-Israel by some Jews, and pro-Israel by some arabs. He just doesn't fall in their dichotomy. Israelis mention the holocaust, not as an excuse, but as a reasoning. People sometimes fail to understand the Jewish paranoia that's been haunting us for years. It's not always justified, but that's the case. We suffered everywhere, and now when people blame our actions, we (the majority, from I see) think it's antisemitism automatically.

Israeli soldiers mostly aren't evil. When they are described as such, they get offended and don't trust "the world". Just like Palestinians are mad when they are considered full of hatred. In the end, many people do become full of hatred... This has to stop, but blaming and accusing only makes things worse, as history shows.

And people have a false sense of history now:
Palestinians think we stole their land by power - wrong. Israelis think the arab population always wanted to throw us to the sea, and that they all hate our presence - wrong. Some Druze think they're not Arab - they are, they're just not part of a nationality that didn't exist until they allied with us, which was not wrong for itself. Jews (and others) think no western country helped Jews during the holocaust - apparently Spain (yes, fascist Spain) did. People blame muslims - but we lived peacefully with them in many places, usually a minority, until some religious leaders (or national as in Syria) didn't like the idea of a Jewish settlement in this part of the Ottoman and later British ruling, which I still don't see a problem with - we wandered all over Europe, and Arab countries - once we do it together it's suddenly wrong? And if Islam must be the problem, how come my ancestors lived peacefully with them in Spain, until the Christians came and kicked us both out? And how come the ones who helped us were the muslims of the Ottoman Empire? Even later, when Ataturk founded the Turkish republic, my grandparents there were treated peacefully by muslims as equal citizens. Antisemitism was more common in western societies, which Turkey admired. Somewhat ironic to me - the western world could learn a thing or two form the Turks, not just the other way...

All in all, this conflict started by Arab fascism and Muslim fanaticism, from all evidences I read, including Arab resources. Now it includes people who just want equal rights and freedom. There's no connection between the historical fights, and the wars of today, in some level. It makes them fascist and religious again, sometimes. That's absurd.

I see many historical claims that are wrong, by all sides possible. We just need to listen.
This conflict has to stop because it's based on misconceptions. People who want peace need to point out these misconceptions - and not fall to the dichotomy of pro-Palestine or pro-Israel.