Rape victim receives 101 lashes for becoming pregnant

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Ambivalence
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06 Feb 2010, 5:10 pm

Moony wrote:
As far as I can see, Islam is at the core of this. Don't get me wrong. I'm not condemning the religion as a whole, but this stuff does still go on. Sad...


The particular trouble with Islam is that Muhammed went to considerable trouble to ensure that his religion would not be changed after his death - it very clearly says "run your society in this nasty way, don't change anything, and anyone who does change anything, or who rejects what I've said after having my ideas explained to them, should be killed." Which isn't a very nice message. It doesn't really matter that Muhammed's instructions for how to run a society may have been slightly nicer than his contemporaries, they're still fifteen centuries out of date, and trying to put them into practice is no good when the rest of the world acknowledges (at least in principle) that gender equality is good, slavery is bad, and you don't have the right to force your religion on others or kill people who insult it. :( So by the narrow definition of religion as "what the founder of the religion intended", I do condemn that, completely, and I think that everyone should be proud to do so. But if we follow a broader definition, treating the religion as the entity composed of everyone who says they practice it, then Islam is, thankfully, about as heterogeneous as any other large group of people, and has good and bad people in normal measure. :? At least, I hope so.

*sigh* I don't know what to do, to be honest. I think it's very, very unfortunate that people are encouraged to think of religious freedom as a good thing, and that all religions are somehow equal - a moment's thought should be enough to disprove that, for *ahem* heaven's sake! - and I feel that I should act, and speak up, but does it do any good? :? It's like "the right thing to do" is to be confrontational about it, and if that isn't irony I dunno what is. :? :roll:


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mgran
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06 Feb 2010, 5:30 pm

ViperaAspis wrote:
Fundamentalist Muslim. Not that Fundamentalist Christian is any better:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
This is a terrible law by modern standards, but considering that when it was written, rape victims were generally sold into prostitution, or executed, it's at least a step in the right direction. It's certainly better than flogging her, and calling her dishonorable.

If I had been around in the time of Deuteronomy I'd sooner have been a woman under Jewish law, where I wouldn't be forced to serve as a temple prostitute till I died of disease or exhaustion. Context is important here.



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06 Feb 2010, 6:49 pm

Most people are unaware of the fact that right up to the mid-20th century in Japan, it was a socially accepted phenomenon for a father to force his daughter to serve in a brothel, if he was annoyed with her. In fact, it was a culturally justified punishment.

When people question religious law, they don't look into the social background when these laws were revealed. During prophet Muhammad's time, when a man dies, his children would fight to take control of his wives. Then they were allowed to do whatever they pleased with these women. They officially became their property. Infanticide of female babies was justified by their culture. It was in this cultural context that laws prohibiting these acts were revealed. Yet, the cultural stigma continues tor persist in this day.

When Christianity spread into Rome, it spread into a land where men were free to murder their slaves, wives and children, without any provocation, and where rape was a state sponsored punishment. Look how it transformed that nation. Yet ignorant people blame the fall of the Roman Empire on Christianity. Huns, Goths, Vandals, Franks, Lombards, etc. They had nothing to do with it, right? ^^;;

As 'barbaric' Islamic and Jewish law might seem, if you look into the cultural background, it seems to be highly progressive.

Ever read Plato's communism of women and property or Kautilya's Arthashastra? Just look into the philosophy of those days, in order to have a brief understanding of society back then was like.



ruveyn
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06 Feb 2010, 7:51 pm

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Oh dear god...She was raped, for f**** sake. The piece of crap who did it should be given the lashes. Not her.


This isn't madness. This is ISLAM!

ruveyn



LiberalJustice
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06 Feb 2010, 8:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Oh dear god...She was raped, for f**** sake. The piece of crap who did it should be given the lashes. Not her.


This isn't madness. This is ISLAM!

ruveyn
Are you saying they had every right to beat her? Because they didn't, she did nothing wrong.


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MissConstrue
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06 Feb 2010, 10:29 pm

LiberalJustice wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Oh dear god...She was raped, for f**** sake. The piece of crap who did it should be given the lashes. Not her.


This isn't madness. This is ISLAM!

ruveyn
Are you saying they had every right to beat her? Because they didn't, she did nothing wrong.


Knowing ruveyn I don't think he is, he's just condemning the religion.

As for me, the problem with Islam vs Judaism and Christianity is the rigidity within its believers. I may not know a lot of Islam but most muslims I've asked about this kind of thing don't say much or act as if it's the law without further discussion whereas with Jews and Christians, if I were to ask them about their religion justifying the unjustified, they would have different opinions regarding the matter and their religion. In short, the quran hasn't changed much since Muhammad became "prophet".


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Moony
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07 Feb 2010, 6:48 pm

Talking about religion is tricky at best. You make one small comment against any religion, and everyone instantly goes after you with cries of "RACIST!! !".


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08 Feb 2010, 11:35 pm

This is utterly disgusting and I can't possibly think of any "excuse" for it, even if the circumstances are taken into account.

But the article doesn't give enough information. I'd like to know more - so a young pregnant girl received 100 lashes and she and the baby are in good health?! 8O Was the fine issued because she was raped, because she got pregnant or because the family married her with someone else? (Not that it makes any difference, but I'd like to understand the (twisted) logic behind it). Is this legal and if not why didn't her family reported the issue before such barbaric punishment took place? Is rape legal in Bangladesh and if not what's being done about the rapist?

at Khan_Sama I understand your point, but abuses committed in Japan or elsewhere (after all, just 40 years ago child pornography was legal in some very civilised western countries :x) cannot justify the above story.


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trojan51
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10 Feb 2010, 2:31 am

this is what is wrong with muslims, they blame women for everything



Khan_Sama
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10 Feb 2010, 1:46 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
This is utterly disgusting and I can't possibly think of any "excuse" for it, even if the circumstances are taken into account.

But the article doesn't give enough information. I'd like to know more - so a young pregnant girl received 100 lashes and she and the baby are in good health?! 8O Was the fine issued because she was raped, because she got pregnant or because the family married her with someone else? (Not that it makes any difference, but I'd like to understand the (twisted) logic behind it). Is this legal and if not why didn't her family reported the issue before such barbaric punishment took place? Is rape legal in Bangladesh and if not what's being done about the rapist?

at Khan_Sama I understand your point, but abuses committed in Japan or elsewhere (after all, just 40 years ago child pornography was legal in some very civilised western countries :x) cannot justify the above story.


It cannot be justified, this is absolutely correct. What took place is barbaric, and frankly, goes against Islamic law itself. Basically, Islamic law states that a rapist is to be executed. The punishment for an unmarried adulterer is put at 90 lashes in the Qur'an.

I recall reading a hadith (Islamic oral tradition - 99% of Islamic law is derived from oral law which was compiled 250 years after Muhammad died) stating that a woman in Medina was raped, in an empty area in public. Two men saw her in a terrible state, and took her to the prophet. Muhammad questioned her about her rapist, and she identified him in the crowd. The rapist was put to death.

Yet, another oral tradition states that four male witnesses (eight female witnesses, as Islamic law states that a woman's verdict is half as important as a mans) are required for testifying the act of adultery or rape, who have witnessed the act of rape, in order to carry out the punishment. This is despite the earlier tradition, explicitly stating that nobody witnessed the act. Before prophet Muhammad, however, a woman's testimony had absolutely no value, and it was highly likely that she would be slapped for butting in into a problem of law and order. Hence, half a testimony can be considered a step forward considering the social situation back then.

Rape victims in backward Muslim-majority countriesare stoned to death or flogged, depending if they are married or not. While this may be considered barbaric in this day and age, it was not considered so a century or so ago. One third of the world is illiterate, and these people still consider these laws to be just and fit. Yet, however, these types of punishments have been reported only in Afghanistan, Iran, and Somalia in recent decades. Iran and Saudi Arabia also no longer use these laws, although they do exist in the official penal code. Afghanistan removed the law after the Taliban lost control. Somalia, of course, is a failed state.

Bangladesh is a secular country. Rape does indeed, carry a punishment of imprisonment. Adultery is not illegal. However, in third world countries like India and Bangladesh, illiteracy and superstition is rampant. Exercise of outdated religious law is very common. Here in India, Hindus too have their religious law. For example, if two Lesbians are caught in the act, they are paraded naked on a donkey. If a non-virgin woman takes the virginity of another woman, two of her fingers are also cut apart from being paraded naked.

Many women in rural India are accused of being witches, and are also paraded naked, before being executed. In fact, in order to stop the executions, a state called Jharkhand passed a 'Witchcraft act' in 1998 making 'witchcraft' a crime, sentencing the accused to one year in jail. Yet, the executions by villagers continue to persist.

Step into a third world country. The cities have malls, educated folk, technology, a cosmopolitan society which is united despite ethno-religious differences, etc. The villages are like the dark ages - no running water, no roads, hardly any electricity. School children in villages (those who are actually sent by their parents - textbooks are expensive when you earn less than half a dollar a day) are still learning to read at the age of 14. Village heads still exercise their own law, such as blinding thieves, cutting hands, etc. Villages are divided into castes, with different castes occupying different areas. For example, the outcasts, the Dalits, live in the South, as Hindus believe that the God of death, Yama, comes from the South. There are even separate glasses for separate castes in tea shops, as higher castes consider it to be unclean to drink from the glasses used by those from lower castes, regardless if it's been washed or not. Even the Catholic church removed the holy communion in India - higher caste converts refused to drink from the same glass used by lower castes. They threatened to revert to Hinduism if they had to drink from the same glass. Hence, the Catholic church removed the holy communion in India on health grounds. Even in Christian graves, you have different sections for different castes.

As you can see in my signature, I'm trying to raise awareness on how common human sacrifice is in India. Many people kidnap young lower castes, and have them sacrificed to the Goddess Kali. Their corpses are either disposed of well, or disguised to make it look like a murder. Hence, human sacrifice is rarely reported in the newspapers. It is however, quite common. One of my acquaintances has witnessed an Aghori (sub-sect) Sadhu (holy man) grab a corpse off the river Ganga, and eat the raw flesh.

There is no comparision between the first world and the third world.

Taking the above situations as an example, I'm sure you can understand why people behave so. What that poor girl has suffered in Bangladesh is just a tiny fraction of the number of human rights abuses that take place in third world countries. The only reason that this has gained popularity is because the word 'Islam' is associated with the act.

And on top of that, you have the usual which even plagues the west, such as trafficking of women & children, drugs, violent crime, etc.

But to make things clear to your questions -

a) She is in early stages of her pregnancy (two months), and the lashes are usually carried out either at the legs or the behind part of the upper torso.
b) She did not report the crime to her parents, she kept it a secret to herself until she discovered her pregnancy.
c) Bangladeshi police had charged the rapist as soon as the incident was reported in local newspapers.



BlueMage
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10 Feb 2010, 3:19 pm

Holy crap khan_sama... it's so rare that someone who is actually informed and experienced comments on these kinds of stories.

I haven't done much traveling outside the US, but I always suspect that most people inside really have no clue about what life is like in third-world places like this.

Instead we just get soundbites and headlines cherry-picking incidents against women. So then we in first-world countries are brainwashed to think "Ooh look at those evil brown people, look how they treat their women! Let's bomb them!" and then there's the agenda of instilling fear in women: "Look how good us western women have it, we're should be sooo thankful". Meanwhile all kinds of atrocities inevitably happen to all kinds of people who are trapped in a deep canyon of poverty and ignorance, but we just see them as the evil brown men who deserve scorn and demonization and powerless oppressed women to pity.



Adolf
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10 Feb 2010, 5:27 pm

These people aren't capable of maintaining a civilized society, therefore they need to be colonized. Not by americans and their vulgar McDonalds capitalism though, but by noble europeans with european morals and culture.

In the US, the cops themselves are sodomite rapists according to several trials given high media coverage over the past few years. Not to mention Abu Ghurayb prison in Iraq. Americans are unworthy to colonize, and muslims are unworthy of national independence.

The answer is, Europe rules all.



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10 Feb 2010, 5:48 pm

Adolf, this is news and current events - not PPR. If you'd like to discuss such topics, please take them there.


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10 Feb 2010, 5:56 pm

BlueMage wrote:
Holy crap khan_sama... it's so rare that someone who is actually informed and experienced comments on these kinds of stories.

I haven't done much traveling outside the US, but I always suspect that most people inside really have no clue about what life is like in third-world places like this.

Instead we just get soundbites and headlines cherry-picking incidents against women. So then we in first-world countries are brainwashed to think "Ooh look at those evil brown people, look how they treat their women! Let's bomb them!" and then there's the agenda of instilling fear in women: "Look how good us western women have it, we're should be sooo thankful". Meanwhile all kinds of atrocities inevitably happen to all kinds of people who are trapped in a deep canyon of poverty and ignorance, but we just see them as the evil brown men who deserve scorn and demonization and powerless oppressed women to pity.


I live here, and the social situation is virtually the same. The developed and educated classes are least bothered about anything beyond their own families. The poor and uneducated... from what I wrote, I guess it's not too difficult to decipher their social situation.

When travelling on a college tour to Rajasthan and Delhi, I met this man who began talking politics. Now personally, I don't discuss partisan politics due to religious reasons. But my classmates were engaged in the conversation, and I couldn't but help to hear what they were discussing due to sharing the same compartment. The man began to say - 'those bloody Chinamen, look how they're trying to take Tibet from us.' One of my acquaintances corrected him by saying that the dispute was regarding Arunachal Pradesh, and that Tibet has been under PRC control for over 5 decades. Then that man said 'whatever it is, we have a more powerful navy, army, and air force.' 'We will chase them into the ocean.'

I don't mean to admonish that person in question. That man was fairly well educated, and working for a prominent company. But this essentially depicts the views of people who have not yet opened their eyes, nor are they willing to do so. Whether you live in New York or Timbuktu, most people have not yet progressed.



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10 Feb 2010, 6:08 pm

Adolf wrote:
These people aren't capable of maintaining a civilized society, therefore they need to be colonized. Not by americans and their vulgar McDonalds capitalism though, but by noble europeans with european morals and culture.

In the US, the cops themselves are sodomite rapists according to several trials given high media coverage over the past few years. Not to mention Abu Ghurayb prison in Iraq. Americans are unworthy to colonize, and muslims are unworthy of national independence.

The answer is, Europe rules all.


No offense Adolf but you do know that it was the Europeans that colonized America right?


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10 Feb 2010, 7:16 pm

Moony wrote:
As far as I can see, Islam is at the core of this. Don't get me wrong. I'm not condemning the religion as a whole, but this stuff does still go on. Sad...


It is not Muslims that are evil. It is their religion that is evil. Right?

ruveyn