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Sand
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11 Feb 2010, 4:08 am

Unorthodox wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Perhaps it isn't such a fallacy, but rather just an outdated usage. Though the statement of "if Hitler tried it, it might be a bad idea" still has some humor value, it is rather old.


That's what I was getting at, Nazi comparisons aren't "wrong", they're just a bit dated and overused. What I find funny is to use these Reductio ad Hitlerum arguments to agitate against such things as vegetarianism, anti-smoking policies, and dogs, Hitler having been fond of all of them they must then be evil... :roll:


There is nothing irrelevant about pointing to the government mechanisms of a totalitarian state. Examples of viciousness don't go out of style like haircuts and women's fashions. The many official acts by the G.W.Bush administration against civil liberties go directly back to any of the totalitarian states including Hitler's and Stalin's and it's important to be aware of this.



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11 Feb 2010, 4:58 am

Sand wrote:
SDFarsight wrote:
Sand wrote:
SDFarsight wrote:
The Godwin law axists to point out cheap debate tactics, like ad hominems. 'The Nazis used X, thus X is evil.'


There is nothing "cheap" about mentioning a supreme excursion into human brutality. There are enough other examples around but Hitler's persuasion of an entire nation to depart from basic human decency is a worthwhile example of how humanity can act. I would say that mentioning Godwin's law is rather cheap in comparison. It verges on the territory of Holocaust deniers.


Indeed, but it is cheap to associate something with the Nazis for the sake of discrediting it when the thing in question doesn't really have anything to do with Nazism, merely that the Nazis used it. To take a simplistic example, saying that chairs and tables are evil because the Nazis used them.


Anybody who resorted to that type of idiotic reference cannot be taken seriously. And that applies to your reference as well. But the use of Godwin's law is frequently taken in legitimate concern about human conduct and your evident dismay that Nazism should be used as a legitimate reference to human depravity strikes me as somewhat either naive or unconcerned that this departure from basic decency is a worthwhile point of interest. That dismays me.


Straw man is a fallacy too. ¬¬



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11 Feb 2010, 5:38 am

I like the phrase "Hitler ate sugar!"


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11 Feb 2010, 6:24 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
I think that Godwin's point wasn't so much that Hitler or Nazi comparisons are invalid or irrelevant, but rather that they are stale, cliched and overused, and his "law" humorously illustrates the point. I wouldn't say that someone who makes a Nazi comparison is automatically wrong per se, but I'd definitely think they were unoriginal at best.


Perhaps it isn't such a fallacy, but rather just an outdated usage. Though the statement of "if Hitler tried it, it might be a bad idea" still has some humor value, it is rather old.

More properly, and generally, such a thing could be stated as,

(1) This dictator has little or no regard for human life.
(2) If this person performed an action based on their valuation of human life, then it might be a bad idea to try it.
(3) this person performed euthanasia of those he considered to be unfit.
(4) it might be a bad idea to try euthanasia.

Not just due to association, but due to their regard for human life. I'm probably stating this poorly though, as I am quite tired.


Your points leave a lot of assumptions open.

"This person had little or no regard for human life and tried this.
You tried this, therefore you have little to no regard for human life."

Would be more what number 4 should be the way you wrote it.

But in the case of euthanasia it isn't always the same reasoning.

I think flipped around it is OK:

This person did something bad because of this view.
You hold this view, therefore you might do something bad.

Assuming you really do have the exact same views as someone else, it is likely (or maybe even definite) you will do the same as them.



Unorthodox
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11 Feb 2010, 7:03 am

Sand wrote:
There is nothing irrelevant about pointing to the government mechanisms of a totalitarian state. Examples of viciousness don't go out of style like haircuts and women's fashions. The many official acts by the G.W.Bush administration against civil liberties go directly back to any of the totalitarian states including Hitler's and Stalin's and it's important to be aware of this.


Boy, you're about as much fun as Sean Penn at the Oscars... :P

Seriously, Godwin's law is just a funny net culture thing meant to encourage originality, not sweep history under the rug or some other such nefarious purpose. If anything, it could be argued that the over use of Hitler/Nazi comparisons could over time rob that dark time of it's impact, let's call it "Nazi Fatigue" (not to be confused with the History channel), and do more to numb people to what actually happened more than any silly net custom could. Think of it like crying wolf, if everyone does it every time politics don't go the way they think they should, by the time someone actually starts rounding up people as national scapegoats the citizenry at large might collectively shrug and say "let me guess, just like you know who...".



Sand
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11 Feb 2010, 8:01 am

Unorthodox wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is nothing irrelevant about pointing to the government mechanisms of a totalitarian state. Examples of viciousness don't go out of style like haircuts and women's fashions. The many official acts by the G.W.Bush administration against civil liberties go directly back to any of the totalitarian states including Hitler's and Stalin's and it's important to be aware of this.


Boy, you're about as much fun as Sean Penn at the Oscars... :P

Seriously, Godwin's law is just a funny net culture thing meant to encourage originality, not sweep history under the rug or some other such nefarious purpose. If anything, it could be argued that the over use of Hitler/Nazi comparisons could over time rob that dark time of it's impact, let's call it "Nazi Fatigue" (not to be confused with the History channel), and do more to numb people to what actually happened more than any silly net custom could. Think of it like crying wolf, if everyone does it every time politics don't go the way they think they should, by the time someone actually starts rounding up people as national scapegoats the citizenry at large might collectively shrug and say "let me guess, just like you know who...".


Since I was in the US army from 1944 to he end of WWII I might have a somewhat different perspective on the nature of fun. There are certain constants in human social directions and the huge slide towards totalitarianism in the practices of the US government during the recent administrations are, to say the least quite disturbing and not to be brushed off by casual acceptance of current brutality. When there are wolves, it's time to cry wolf. The methods used to frighten people and allay their sensitivities are directly in line with previous totalitarian takeovers and to say it is unfashionable to be alerted to the dangers is one of the most knuckle-headed comments I have come across.



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11 Feb 2010, 10:44 am

The Godwin law is the recognition of a debate fallacy, not a joke* or trying to ignore/cheapen the warning from history that is Nazism. If anything it seeks to stop people who cheapen the warning of WW2, like Unorthodox said, they're crying wolf.

*though sometimes the sheer stupidity of people who make arguments on that fallacy can be funny



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11 Feb 2010, 1:49 pm

Mike Godwin is [removed - M.]


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11 Feb 2010, 2:02 pm

SDFarsight wrote:
The Godwin law axists to point out cheap debate tactics, like ad hominems. 'The Nazis used X, thus X is evil.'

Basil Fawlty wrote:
Basil: Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. [returns to the Germans] So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads.

Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?!
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.



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11 Feb 2010, 5:31 pm

Friskeygirl wrote:
SDFarsight wrote:
The Godwin law axists to point out cheap debate tactics, like ad hominems. 'The Nazis used X, thus X is evil.'

Basil Fawlty wrote:
Basil: Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. [returns to the Germans] So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads.

Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?!
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.

:lol: Indeed.



Sand
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12 Feb 2010, 12:35 am

SDFarsight wrote:
Friskeygirl wrote:
SDFarsight wrote:
The Godwin law axists to point out cheap debate tactics, like ad hominems. 'The Nazis used X, thus X is evil.'

Basil Fawlty wrote:
Basil: Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. [returns to the Germans] So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads.

Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?!
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.

:lol: Indeed.


As I pointed out, the methods of taking a country into totalitarianism are classically displayed by the development of Nazism and when the policies of a government display those tendencies it is not only right and proper to compare them to the the emplacement of Nazism, it is a clear warning that the cry of wolf is not a false warning. That the idiotic dismissal of such a dire warning by citing Godwin should be accepted as a legitimate comment is a silly attempt to throw the genuine unease into disarray and misdirect the concern.



Unorthodox
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12 Feb 2010, 1:26 am

Sand wrote:
Since I was in the US army from 1944 to he end of WWII I might have a somewhat different perspective on the nature of fun. There are certain constants in human social directions and the huge slide towards totalitarianism in the practices of the US government during the recent administrations are, to say the least quite disturbing and not to be brushed off by casual acceptance of current brutality. When there are wolves, it's time to cry wolf. The methods used to frighten people and allay their sensitivities are directly in line with previous totalitarian takeovers and to say it is unfashionable to be alerted to the dangers is one of the most knuckle-headed comments I have come across.


So you got your sense of humor shot off in the war? That sucks...



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12 Feb 2010, 1:41 am

Unorthodox wrote:
Sand wrote:
Since I was in the US army from 1944 to he end of WWII I might have a somewhat different perspective on the nature of fun. There are certain constants in human social directions and the huge slide towards totalitarianism in the practices of the US government during the recent administrations are, to say the least quite disturbing and not to be brushed off by casual acceptance of current brutality. When there are wolves, it's time to cry wolf. The methods used to frighten people and allay their sensitivities are directly in line with previous totalitarian takeovers and to say it is unfashionable to be alerted to the dangers is one of the most knuckle-headed comments I have come across.


So you got your sense of humor shot off in the war? That sucks...


Why, not at all. Your silliness is very amusing.



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12 Feb 2010, 9:25 am

pakled wrote:
Don't forget Godwin...;)


Topic Split topic (of course! :roll: )

Reducing all political arguments to hitler is reductio ad nauseum, and ad absurdium,

This topic is now splintered, Godwinized, and strawmanured.


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Sand
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12 Feb 2010, 10:03 am

sartresue wrote:
pakled wrote:
Don't forget Godwin...;)


Topic Split topic (of course! :roll: )

Reducing all political arguments to hitler is reductio ad nauseum, and ad absurdium,

This topic is now splintered, Godwinized, and strawmanured.


Then God always wins, eh?



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12 Feb 2010, 10:45 am

Oh boy! a thread about Godwin's law!

I've always had several problems with the law. Hitler comes up in debate for several reasons:

1. everyone agrees he was evil.

If I used Andrew Jackson, Sigmund Freud, or Phillup Pullman as an example of evil in a debate, someone would deny wether or not they where evil. thus the debate wold cease to be about good and evil and be about wether or not person X was evil. Similarly, If someone else used Hernando Cortez or the mongols as an example of evil, I would immediately contest that. Neo-Nazis aside, humanity has come to the consensus that Hitler was an evil man. nobody will derail the debate into a discussion about wether or not Hitler was actually a bad guy.

2. His actions and motivations are well-known.

everybody knows what Hitler did, and why he did it. Figures like Stalin and Nero are lesser known in both what their vllinous acts where and, more importantly, why they carried out those acts.

3. His actions and motivations are relevant in many topics.

Hitler's motivations and actions will be relevant in many discussions. Caligula was a bad guy, but his reasons for being evil will be less relevant in most discussions. Furthermore, as Caligula was ultimately stopped by his own people, he loses the dictator element that Hitler has, making Hitler a better example for an argument about tyrannical government than Caligula, which is his main selling point.

So there are many logical reasons why Hitler is invoked so commonly in internet debate even though there are numerous other examples of real-world evil. For these reasons I would not lend Godwin's law any merit.