Fetal Rights & Forced Medical Treatment: Your Opinion?

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PLA
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29 Mar 2010, 9:50 am

Now I'm confuzzled again. :( I thought it would stay intelligible.


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29 Mar 2010, 12:43 pm

leejosepho wrote:
I am neither saying nor suggesting any such thing.

I am only saying it is insane or ridiculous or whatever else to say it is okay to abort at will simply because a fetus is alleged to have no rights. If we are going to simply abort at will, let us please find some other justification for doing so! {etc, etc}


OK. Abortion is back on the table now; thanks, leejosepho.



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29 Mar 2010, 2:17 pm

LKL wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
I am neither saying nor suggesting any such thing.

I am only saying it is insane or ridiculous or whatever else to say it is okay to abort at will simply because a fetus is alleged to have no rights. If we are going to simply abort at will, let us please find some other justification for doing so! {etc, etc}


OK. Abortion is back on the table now; thanks, leejosepho.


Is he looking for a justification beside there being no problem? Do you think it would be enough if every abortion caused a gentle rain of precious metals and crystalised happiness?


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leejosepho
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29 Mar 2010, 6:40 pm

Sand wrote:
You claim to not demanding fetuses be regarded as human beings yet you refer to them as babies. They are not babies. Period.


Okay, split some hairs ...

So why are people so determined about killing or halting or aborting whatever it is in the womb? Why so much disrespect for the fetus?

Why can a parent say "No!" to a school nurse and have it stick concerning an aspirin, then not even be notified about an abortion?

Why did an abortion nurse snicker and roll her eyes at me when I asked why none of the "Reason for abortion" boxes had been checked on the form I had been told I might as well sign anyway since they (the staff there) had ways to easily get past me if I did not?

But, I am getting off-track, so ...

Why should a fetus need alleged "rights" to possibly be carried full-term?

What is wrong with us that we so easily destroy our own kind even while yet only "in the oven"?


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Sand
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29 Mar 2010, 6:48 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Sand wrote:
You claim to not demanding fetuses be regarded as human beings yet you refer to them as babies. They are not babies. Period.


Okay, split some hairs ...

So why are people so determined about killing or halting or aborting whatever it is in the womb? Why so much disrespect for the fetus?

Why can a parent so "No!" to a school nurse and have it stick concerning an aspirin, then not even be notified about an abortion?

But, I am getting off-track, so ...

Why should a fetus need alleged "rights" to possibly be carried full-term?


It needs full rights for enforcement to be carried to full term. At the moment many people involved in pregnancy have to decide between the rights of the mother to decide whether or not to permit a potential child to be born or the rights of the mother not to have that child. A fetus is not a child. It is a potential child and even in it's potential state it can be a threat of some sort to a living human being. The life of a potential anything has no rights at all and certainly should not be permitted to injure or destroy an actual free living human being.



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29 Mar 2010, 10:41 pm

Actually, the fact is that when a woman is pregnant, she is with child. The child's genes are different from the mother's genes, the child's blood type may be different blood from the mother's, and also the child's gender may be different.

It seems to me that anytime a society wants to draw innocent blood, it makes the victims out be either a non-person, a subhuman thing, or a parasite in advance of their doing terrible things to them.

The common rationale society gave for killing the Native American was that they were "savages" and that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian."

As a fundamental reason for abusing and killing slaves, the Supreme Court gave the racists the Dred Scott decision, which stated that blacks were not persons.

And the Nazis classified the Jews, gypsies, and other minorities as something less-than-human before they began building their extermination camps.

And the Supreme Court in America gave to the atheists who define the life in the mother's womb in such a way that the child has neither any rights nor any value the Roe vs. Wade decision, which has led to the snuffing out of innocent life on a grand scale.


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Sand
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29 Mar 2010, 11:50 pm

JetLag wrote:
Actually, the fact is that when a woman is pregnant, she is with child. The child's genes are different from the mother's genes, the child's blood type may be different blood from the mother's, and also the child's gender may be different.

It seems to me that anytime a society wants to draw innocent blood, it makes the victims out be either a non-person, a subhuman thing, or a parasite in advance of their doing terrible things to them.

The common rationale society gave for killing the Native American was that they were "savages" and that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian."

As a fundamental reason for abusing and killing slaves, the Supreme Court gave the racists the Dred Scott decision, which stated that blacks were not persons.

And the Nazis classified the Jews, gypsies, and other minorities as something less-than-human before they began building their extermination camps.

And the Supreme Court in America gave to the atheists who define the life in the mother's womb in such a way that the child has neither any rights nor any value the Roe vs. Wade decision, which has led to the snuffing out of innocent life on a grand scale.


If you are concerned about persecution of genetic variation every time one takes an antibiotic it kills beneficent digestive microbes which are radically different in genetics from humans. .And a fetus is not much different in its early stages in intellectual quality than a digestive bacteria.



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30 Mar 2010, 12:17 am

leejosepho wrote:
What is wrong with us that we so easily destroy our own kind even while yet only "in the oven"?


*snort*
over fertility, birth defects, and morbid conditions of the mother during pregnancy.

C'mon, even you could have figured out that one.



PLA
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30 Mar 2010, 5:52 am

leejosepho wrote:
Why should a fetus need alleged "rights" to possibly be carried full-term?

What is wrong with us that we so easily destroy our own kind even while yet only "in the oven"?

Aha, the topic is psychology, rather than policy!


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leejosepho
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30 Mar 2010, 6:11 am

JetLag wrote:
Actually, the fact is that when a woman is pregnant, she is with child. The child's genes are different from the mother's genes, the child's blood type may be different blood from the mother's, and also the child's gender may be different.

It seems to me that anytime a society wants to draw innocent blood, it makes the victims out be either a non-person, a subhuman thing, or a parasite in advance of their doing terrible things to them.

The common rationale society gave for killing the Native American was that they were "savages" and that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian."

As a fundamental reason for abusing and killing slaves, the Supreme Court gave the racists the Dred Scott decision, which stated that blacks were not persons.

And the Nazis classified the Jews, gypsies, and other minorities as something less-than-human before they began building their extermination camps.

And the Supreme Court in America gave to the atheists who define the life in the mother's womb in such a way that the child has neither any rights nor any value the Roe vs. Wade decision, which has led to the snuffing out of innocent life on a grand scale.


There you go, and several pages back an abortion-related comment was made that could have just as easily been pointed at folks like us on the spectrum who are incapapable of sustaining independent life ...

... and neither politics nor religion nor philosophy will ever resolve this matter of the heart.


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30 Mar 2010, 6:21 am

leejosepho wrote:
JetLag wrote:
Actually, the fact is that when a woman is pregnant, she is with child. The child's genes are different from the mother's genes, the child's blood type may be different blood from the mother's, and also the child's gender may be different.

It seems to me that anytime a society wants to draw innocent blood, it makes the victims out be either a non-person, a subhuman thing, or a parasite in advance of their doing terrible things to them.

The common rationale society gave for killing the Native American was that they were "savages" and that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian."

As a fundamental reason for abusing and killing slaves, the Supreme Court gave the racists the Dred Scott decision, which stated that blacks were not persons.

And the Nazis classified the Jews, gypsies, and other minorities as something less-than-human before they began building their extermination camps.

And the Supreme Court in America gave to the atheists who define the life in the mother's womb in such a way that the child has neither any rights nor any value the Roe vs. Wade decision, which has led to the snuffing out of innocent life on a grand scale.


There you go, and several pages back an abortion-related comment was made that could have just as easily been pointed at folks like us on the spectrum who are incapapable of sustaining independent life ...

... and neither politics nor religion nor philosophy will ever resolve this matter of the heart.


Aaah, but a fetus is not innocent life. It is a parasite on the mother taking her nourishment and burdening her with all sorts of problems from nausea to psychological changes favoring the parasite. Some people are willing to undergo this punishment to have descendants but it is an indulgence that must be carefully considered and should not have the force of law.



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30 Mar 2010, 6:28 am

Sand wrote:
... but a fetus is not innocent life. It is a parasite ...


Mere rhetorical spin.

Sand wrote:
Some people are willing to undergo this punishment ...


Who decided pregnancy is punishment?!


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30 Mar 2010, 6:33 am

Sand wrote:

It needs full rights for enforcement to be carried to full term. At the moment many people involved in pregnancy have to decide between the rights of the mother to decide whether or not to permit a potential child to be born or the rights of the mother not to have that child. A fetus is not a child. It is a potential child and even in it's potential state it can be a threat of some sort to a living human being. The life of a potential anything has no rights at all and certainly should not be permitted to injure or destroy an actual free living human being.


Having the mother willing to carry the fetus to birth is sufficient. Rights do not enter here. What counts is a decision on the part of the woman to birth the fetus she is carrying in her body.

ruveyn



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30 Mar 2010, 6:34 am

leejosepho wrote:
Mere rhetorical spin.



par·a·site–noun
1.an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

Source: dictionary.reference.com
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Sounds similar to a fetus to me.



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30 Mar 2010, 6:44 am

Sand wrote:


Aaah, but a fetus is not innocent life. It is a parasite on the mother taking her nourishment and burdening her with all sorts of problems from nausea to psychological changes favoring the parasite. Some people are willing to undergo this punishment to have descendants but it is an indulgence that must be carefully considered and should not have the force of law.


Punishment? Some women who look forward to having the children of their own flesh do not regard the effort and discomfort of giving birth a punishment. It is simply a necessary part of the process. Punishment is pain inflicted by one party against another to impose the will of the punishing party on the punished party.

ruveyn