Turkey doesn't like US vote on Armenian genocide

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sefer
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06 Mar 2010, 4:18 am

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 79817.html

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A resolution by a US congressional committee branding the killing of Armenians during World War I as "genocide" has triggered protests in Turkey.

Protesters on Friday marched in front of the US embassy in Ankara, the Turkish capital, chanting "God damn American imperialism".


I don't really know anything about the Armenian genocide, or WW1 for that matter but can someone tell me why the Turkish government and people care this much about recognition of something that happened before any of them were alive?



DavidK
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06 Mar 2010, 8:28 am

Holding votes on it? What's the point? It happened nearly 100 years ago and all those involved will be dead.


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06 Mar 2010, 8:43 am

The British wanted to loot the Ottoman Empire. So they armed the Armenians to rise up and claim that the parts of Turky they lived in were now Armenia.

If Mexico did the same in the southwest they would have at least a historic claim.

The British had no reason to start a war, so they armed the Christian Armenians, terrorists, and planned to come in in support of their Christian allies.

Turkey told the Aremenians to knock it off, the borders of Turkey are not going to change, when thet did not work, they told them to move back to Armenia. The Armenians then killed local officals, and declared an Armenian State in Turkey. Then they proceeded to make the area Turk Free.

The army moved in, and pushed them back over the Armenian border. It was a fight every step of the way, the Armenians were well armed, sure that Britian would send troops to their aid, so the fighting raged on, more poured in from Armenia.

Many Turks died, and in the end, all of the Armenians were driven out.

It was just one of many attacks on the Ottomen Turks that followed the British discovery of oil at the Suez Canal.

The Ottoman Turk Empire was huge, and from 1300 to WWI was the largest and longest lasting empire.

Britian also armed the Saudi Tribe, bombed railroads, assinated officials, and directly attacked Turkey.

Gallapoli was where they sent Colonial troops to charge machine guns, killing a huge number of Australians.

Why this is coming up now is the Kurds. America did the same to overthrow Saddam, arming the Kurds, who now claim part of Turkey as their homeland, Kurdistan. They are claiming parts of Turkey, Iran, and Iraq as theirs, with American support.

The Turks have not only killed them in Turkey, but have crossed into Iraq to the safe havens, and killed 450 in one raid. America would like Kurdistan as a base in the region. The Turks see it as a plan to break up Turkey, just as British and Americans did to Yogoslavia.

The recent bombings in Istanbul were Kurds, and the same results will follow, Turkey will push the Kurds out of the country. Since America is backing the Kurds, arming them, the protest is directed at America.

The problem from the south is the Kurds are claiming the northern oil fields, and to being an autonamous country within Iraq. As soon as the Americans leave they will be over run. So carving out a homeland in Turkey provides a base, and the Kurds claim part of Iran.

Turkey is taking a stand with Iraq and Iran, There will never be a Kurdistan.

This makes some American oil companies unhappy.

Turkey exists because they have never lost a battle, they are the best fighters on earth. To stop the flow of arms into Turkey they have taken a zone in Iraq several times, killed all the Kurd fighters, taken the arms, and gone back to Turkey.

First a claim of historical genocide, then a claim of Ethnic Clensing, then a UN partition to protect the poor Kurds.

Kurd means murdering hill bandit, they lived in the mountains, and were nothing but land pirates.



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06 Mar 2010, 9:28 am

You might want to check who really did the dying at Gallipoli. Though I suspect you won't.

(If you're in the least interested in Gallipoli, the real culprit is Churchill, and his overconfidence in naval power against shore artillery and naval minefields.)


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06 Mar 2010, 10:57 am

I used to work with a guy who was exporting medical equipment to Turkey. Doing business there is a complete circus. There are no rules there. It makes for an exciting life, but it doesn't make for a developed country.



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06 Mar 2010, 1:30 pm

[img][650:800]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/DistributionOfArmeniansInTheCaucasus.png[/img]



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06 Mar 2010, 1:39 pm

DavidK wrote:
Holding votes on it? What's the point? It happened nearly 100 years ago and all those involved will be dead.


Well it may have been a 100 years ago but a 100 years can do a lot to a nation and not to mention families who lost members.

I don't know a lot about this but I do know that history has a habit of repeating itself if not learned. Sadly it seems most people including the U.S. haven't learned much about the causes and effects of war and genocide.


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06 Mar 2010, 2:53 pm

In the First Century BC this was the Eastern Roman Empire, not Armenia.

The Arabs took that, the Turks took it from the Arabs in 1300.

I also recently saw a map where Georgia claimed a greater Georgia based on history. Russia changed their mind.

When America apoligises for what it did to the 500 Nations, and the slaves, they can talk about other people.

Of course, knowing the American Congress, they may have only recently heard of it.

It does seem an odd time to be bringing it up. Just as the American allies are about to be abandoned in Iraq.



ikorack
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06 Mar 2010, 4:40 pm

Wait so did Britain arm the Armenians to get killed or did they arm them to get there country back? or was it even there country? And yeah it is odd that America does this now.



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07 Mar 2010, 5:05 am

Inventor wrote:
In the First Century BC this was the Eastern Roman Empire, not Armenia.

The Arabs took that, the Turks took it from the Arabs in 1300.

I also recently saw a map where Georgia claimed a greater Georgia based on history. Russia changed their mind.

When America apoligises for what it did to the 500 Nations, and the slaves, they can talk about other people.

Of course, knowing the American Congress, they may have only recently heard of it.

It does seem an odd time to be bringing it up. Just as the American allies are about to be abandoned in Iraq.


Armenia is a very ancient country. It was a Roman client state, and wars between the Sassanid and Roman Empires were fought over Armenia. Armenian migrants also established a separate kingdom in the south of Asia Minor known as 'Armenian Cilicia'.

Regardless of politics, this is an ethical issue. Can a nation deny their forefathers committed genocide?



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07 Mar 2010, 6:47 am

And according to the Greeks this is Greek land, even before Alexander. Before that it was the Hatti, but history is not recent events.

For 500 years Europe supported it's self by genocide, looting, the colonial era.

So bringing up the issue of who has the most blood on their hands, Europe wins, the Americas come in second.

The Ottoman Turkish Empire covered many people, religions, and lasted a long time.

The Europe of the time was an illiterate backwater, mostly good for the black death, and crusades.

The Ottoman Turkish Empire was 200 years old before Europe formed states, and the first books were written, El Cid, about christians driving the Moors out of Andulusia. As that was the only universities in Europe, it set development back.

Fibbernachi brought Indian numbers to Europe in 1300, from Algeria, which were transported and spread through the world during the Islamic Golden Age, then continued through the Turks.

The British attack on the Tukish Empire was a lot like Rome and Carthage, Rome won, but lost their empire doing so.

The modern country of Turky is the last stand of an empire that reached from China to Spain.

They exist because all who attacked them died.

The real cause of WWI seems to be the railroad being built between Turkey and Germany, That would make British shipping near useless, so they started WWI. They got a lot of people killled.

That lead to WWII, which ended the Colonial Era, and got a lot of people killed.

During the Cold War Turkey allowed the US to maintain bases, the U2 flights came from there. They have been a friend and a supporter of western goals.

The current squabble is over using Turkey to supply Iraq and Afganistan, which they do not support.

America has backed their enemy the Kurds, and no way are US troops, tanks, trucks, going to roll through Turkey to supply the Kurds.

Long term, they have to live with Iraq and Iran, and hold a common interest in keeping the Kurds from having weapons, a flag, and a country.

What this comes down to is, the Kurds are to America what the Armenians were to England.

There is only one road in, through the Persian Gulf, then through Iraq. Iraq is not going to accept the Kurds taking the northern oil fields, not being part of Iraq, or a Kurd army.

Recent bad politics trumps history.



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07 Mar 2010, 7:23 am

I think you misunderstood my intentions - I care not about Armenian/Turkish/Kurdish rivalry or politics.

All I meant to imply was that people should recognise that mass killings took place along with mass displacement of civillians.

I also 100% support linguistic and cultural rights for Kurds in Turkey.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT10Gbi_pUk&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]



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09 Mar 2010, 1:26 am

uh...now I know who was sleeping in History class...;)

The genocide was around 1915, as I recall. The Turks were allies of the Germans, and the British wanted to have a water route into Russia (which was a French ally). Granted, Europe had been carving country-sized chunks out of the Ottoman empire since the 19th Century, and Sikes-Picot did divvy up the middle East, but in truth, the world didn't care that much about what happened to the Armenians.

In fact, in setting up the Genocide/Holocaust in WWII, Hitler was quoted as saying 'who remembers the Armenians?"

I think someone (who shall not be named) has confused the Arabs with the Turks. The Turks only showed up as a 'threat' after they conquered Constantiople in the 1450s. They actually conquered the Arabs, so while they did have an interesting civilization (went to Istanbul myself, back in the day), I think there's a lot of confusion.

But Armenian groups have been pressing for this for decades. The Turks have been opposing it for decades (until fairly recently, dwelling on it in public was actually a crime in Turkey, and you could be thrown into prison for it. A few people actually were)

Let the debate rage on...


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09 Mar 2010, 4:56 am

sefer wrote:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/03/20103661914779817.html

Quote:
A resolution by a US congressional committee branding the killing of Armenians during World War I as "genocide" has triggered protests in Turkey.

Protesters on Friday marched in front of the US embassy in Ankara, the Turkish capital, chanting "God damn American imperialism".


I don't really know anything about the Armenian genocide, or WW1 for that matter but can someone tell me why the Turkish government and people care this much about recognition of something that happened before any of them were alive?


The slaughter of the Armenians makes the Turks ashamed of themselves and they do not like the feeling. Some Germans felt the same way about the Holocaust.

By the way, there is a connection between the two slaughters. When Hitler was challenged on the wisdom of killing of the Jews and how the world would react, he replied to this objection by asking how did the world react to the killing of the Armenians. The answer is not very much.

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dt18
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12 Mar 2010, 6:42 pm

Turkey should just come to terms with what they did. A genocide is a genocide, no way around it. I just saw something on this on 60 Minutes a couple weeks ago. There is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that it was a genocide. People in Turkey were killed for telling the truth. Now stop denying it was a genocide and just say it.



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12 Mar 2010, 7:17 pm

dt18 wrote:
Turkey should just come to terms with what they did. A genocide is a genocide, no way around it. I just saw something on this on 60 Minutes a couple weeks ago. There is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that it was a genocide. People in Turkey were killed for telling the truth. Now stop denying it was a genocide and just say it.


No one alive in Turkey now had anything to do with the massacre of the Armenians. It all happened back around 1915.

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