Page 1 of 2 [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

swansong
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 107

14 Mar 2010, 1:38 am

I'm not going to say that all third parties are bad. They have every right to be part of our democracy, but I wouldn't take them seriously. That's not saying that the major parties are good, though.

Third party candidates campaign that they are outsiders who are sick and tired of a bipartisan gridlock and are going to come inside to make major changes and to fix the country's problems, but that is not true.

There are several reasons why I do not take third parties seriously.

1) The leaders of the third parties know that they aren't going to win the election and most of them know that they won't even play a spoiler role. Because of that, most of them only serve to collect donation money and to give their candidates their 15 minutes of fame.

2) Usually, third party candidates have little to no political or military experience.

3) There is no accountability as they will never be elected to office. Because of that, they are free to support politically popular ideas and they are free to criticize politically unpopular ideas, regardless on what is necessary for the country. They are able to have a political platform based on opinion polls.

4) Many third parties campaign against the two major parties and want to end the tension between the two parties. The problem is that every politician is going to promote a controversial agenda that is going to receive opposition once they enter office.

5) Their reputation of newness and their image of being an outsider is going to be non-existant as soon as they get elected, if they do. It's easy to criticize politics from the outside, but once you come on the inside, it's just not that easy.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 2:48 am

swansong wrote:
I'm not going to say that all third parties are bad. They have every right to be part of our democracy, but I wouldn't take them seriously. That's not saying that the major parties are good, though.

Third party candidates campaign that they are outsiders who are sick and tired of a bipartisan gridlock and are going to come inside to make major changes and to fix the country's problems, but that is not true.

There are several reasons why I do not take third parties seriously.

1) The leaders of the third parties know that they aren't going to win the election and most of them know that they won't even play a spoiler role. Because of that, most of them only serve to collect donation money and to give their candidates their 15 minutes of fame.

2) Usually, third party candidates have little to no political or military experience.

3) There is no accountability as they will never be elected to office. Because of that, they are free to support politically popular ideas and they are free to criticize politically unpopular ideas, regardless on what is necessary for the country. They are able to have a political platform based on opinion polls.

4) Many third parties campaign against the two major parties and want to end the tension between the two parties. The problem is that every politician is going to promote a controversial agenda that is going to receive opposition once they enter office.

5) Their reputation of newness and their image of being an outsider is going to be non-existant as soon as they get elected, if they do. It's easy to criticize politics from the outside, but once you come on the inside, it's just not that easy.


The Republican party arose as a third party. The current Democrats and Republicans are pretty much defunct as representative of anything else but the corruptive money of the wealthy elite. Admittedly their power may be such that violence, not political initiative may be the only solution as distasteful as that may be but who knows? Things have to get a bit worse for prompting proper action and that seems to be coming about.



swansong
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 107

14 Mar 2010, 5:10 am

Sand wrote:
The Republican party arose as a third party. The current Democrats and Republicans are pretty much defunct as representative of anything else but the corruptive money of the wealthy elite. Admittedly their power may be such that violence, not political initiative may be the only solution as distasteful as that may be but who knows? Things have to get a bit worse for prompting proper action and that seems to be coming about.


The Republican Party was a third party when it was formed, but only until shortly after its creation when the Whig Party was dying. The Republican Party was a major party during the 1860 election.

I'm not trying to whitewash the two current major parties in the U.S., but they do have something that third parties do not: accountability. If a person of the two major parties makes a mistake, he/she is accountable and will lose his/her seat. The third party members are free to criticize the government all they want without having to take any responsibility for it.

This quote is a prime example of what I am talking about:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” - Theodore Roosevelt



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 5:25 am

swansong wrote:
Sand wrote:
The Republican party arose as a third party. The current Democrats and Republicans are pretty much defunct as representative of anything else but the corruptive money of the wealthy elite. Admittedly their power may be such that violence, not political initiative may be the only solution as distasteful as that may be but who knows? Things have to get a bit worse for prompting proper action and that seems to be coming about.


The Republican Party was a third party when it was formed, but only until shortly after its creation when the Whig Party was dying. The Republican Party was a major party during the 1860 election.

I'm not trying to whitewash the two current major parties in the U.S., but they do have something that third parties do not: accountability. If a person of the two major parties makes a mistake, he/she is accountable and will lose his/her seat. The third party members are free to criticize the government all they want without having to take any responsibility for it.

This quote is a prime example of what I am talking about:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” - Theodore Roosevelt


And when both parties have nothing to offer but corrupted hacks do you think a third party has nothing to offer?



swansong
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 107

14 Mar 2010, 5:35 am

Sand wrote:
And when both parties have nothing to offer but corrupted hacks do you think a third party has nothing to offer?


Yes.



Fuzzy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,223
Location: Alberta Canada

14 Mar 2010, 6:50 am

Third parties play an excellent king maker role when primary parties are closely matched.


_________________
davidred wrote...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Mar 2010, 8:53 am

Sand wrote:

And when both parties have nothing to offer but corrupted hacks do you think a third party has nothing to offer?


If the current political parties are intellectually and politically bankrupt there is an opportunity for a third party to form and attract the best and most energetic people of the two existing parties. It happened once before in our history: the Republican Party was formed as a place for anti-slavery politicians. Eventually the old Whig party folded up and died and the Republicans became a viable political choice.

It is possible, though not likely, that something like that could happen again. What issue is so devisive that it can only be resolved by the formation of a third party? In the middle of the 19th century slavery in the territories was such an issue. Is there any issue now that was as troubled and troublesome as slavery was then?

ruveyn



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 9:15 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

And when both parties have nothing to offer but corrupted hacks do you think a third party has nothing to offer?


If the current political parties are intellectually and politically bankrupt there is an opportunity for a third party to form and attract the best and most energetic people of the two existing parties. It happened once before in our history: the Republican Party was formed as a place for anti-slavery politicians. Eventually the old Whig party folded up and died and the Republicans became a viable political choice.

It is possible, though not likely, that something like that could happen again. What issue is so devisive that it can only be resolved by the formation of a third party? In the middle of the 19th century slavery in the territories was such an issue. Is there any issue now that was as troubled and troublesome as slavery was then?

ruveyn


Corruption?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Mar 2010, 10:53 am

Sand wrote:

Corruption?


Corruption is as natural to humans as breathing. Corruption is part and parcel of the human condition. Slavery is not.

ruveyn



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 10:57 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

Corruption?


Corruption is as natural to humans as breathing. Corruption is part and parcel of the human condition. Slavery is not.

ruveyn


There are degrees.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

14 Mar 2010, 8:03 pm

swansong wrote:
I'm not trying to whitewash the two current major parties in the U.S., but they do have something that third parties do not: accountability. If a person of the two major parties makes a mistake, he/she is accountable and will lose his/her seat.

Nonsense. A congresswoman in a district neighboring mine (Jean Schmidt) stood up in the halls of Congress and called a retired Marine a coward. Her constituents, who worship the armed forces in some sort of jingoistic cult, enthusiastically re-elected her. There are plenty of other examples of disgraceful or corrupt politicians who are not held to accountability.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


swansong
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 107

14 Mar 2010, 8:08 pm

Orwell wrote:
swansong wrote:
I'm not trying to whitewash the two current major parties in the U.S., but they do have something that third parties do not: accountability. If a person of the two major parties makes a mistake, he/she is accountable and will lose his/her seat.

Nonsense. A congresswoman in a district neighboring mine (Jean Schmidt) stood up in the halls of Congress and called a retired Marine a coward. Her constituents, who worship the armed forces in some sort of jingoistic cult, enthusiastically re-elected her. There are plenty of other examples of disgraceful or corrupt politicians who are not held to accountability.


The example you provided is only one case compared to everything as a whole. Her remark was definitely uncalled for, but there were probably other factors involved.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 8:13 pm

swansong wrote:
Orwell wrote:
swansong wrote:
I'm not trying to whitewash the two current major parties in the U.S., but they do have something that third parties do not: accountability. If a person of the two major parties makes a mistake, he/she is accountable and will lose his/her seat.

Nonsense. A congresswoman in a district neighboring mine (Jean Schmidt) stood up in the halls of Congress and called a retired Marine a coward. Her constituents, who worship the armed forces in some sort of jingoistic cult, enthusiastically re-elected her. There are plenty of other examples of disgraceful or corrupt politicians who are not held to accountability.


The example you provided is only one case compared to everything as a whole. Her remark was definitely uncalled for, but there were probably other factors involved.


The disgusting foolishness of legislators that have held their seats for years is more the rule than the exception.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

14 Mar 2010, 8:21 pm

swansong wrote:
The example you provided is only one case compared to everything as a whole. Her remark was definitely uncalled for, but there were probably other factors involved.

It was a fairly representative example. As Sand said, it is more the rule than the exception. I challenge you to find half a dozen honest men in Congress.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Jkid
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 487
Location: College Park,MD

14 Mar 2010, 8:44 pm

The primary purpose of third parties is to force the dominant two parties to adopt an issue. One the issue is resolved to the third parties favor, they'll slip back into obscurity. The real reason why third parties do not get elected in major positions of power in America is because the election laws currently benefit the dominant parties, because they were created by them for their benefit.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

14 Mar 2010, 9:00 pm

Orwell wrote:
swansong wrote:
The example you provided is only one case compared to everything as a whole. Her remark was definitely uncalled for, but there were probably other factors involved.

It was a fairly representative example. As Sand said, it is more the rule than the exception. I challenge you to find half a dozen honest men in Congress.

RON PAUL!! ! :P :twisted: