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League_Girl
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10 Apr 2010, 2:41 am

I was at another forum and an NT told me some people are unable to argue when I said it annoys me when people back out of an argument. She said she is unable to have them and I found it hard to believe so I ask these things:


If you have something to say, say it. How is that hard?
When someone says something and you disagree, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
When someone says something and they are wrong, correct them. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a new idea, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have an opinion, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a point of view, say it. How can someone not have that ability?

I also say:

I always expect people to back up what they say and if they are going to accuse me, they better back up their claim or it didn't happen.

I also expect people to correct me if I am wrong or I assume I'm right. If someone decided to correct me five months later after I have said something, you be having 50 questions thrown at you because why did you wait that long to correct me? If you can't answer, I must be right.

Now how can all these things be hard to do?


EDIT: Made it less offensive. Thanks Pensieve.



Last edited by League_Girl on 10 Apr 2010, 4:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

LabPet
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10 Apr 2010, 2:48 am

I'm terrible at arguing! I suck at arguing - to my detriment. I hate this quality and sometimes wish I could be a more convincing person but, at the same time, I often think this trait of "convincing" may be manipulative. I do have these episodes of mini-fainting (not kidding) where I'm positively floored another could possible be so........unflailingly stupid? But I simply fix their obvious blunder; the words elude. Then I feel faint, swoon, and have to lie down.

Even if the other one is blatantly wrong I cannot seem to make my point to correct. The exception is in writing or when I have time.

As an Aspie, I can state the logic is fluidic.......Never try to out-logic an Aspie. You will not win. 8)

The dilemma: Most people, the NT variety, are not logical. AAAaaacckk! Where's that fainting couch?



Nan
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10 Apr 2010, 2:52 am

No, actually, some people cannot "argue." I had to learn it, myself. It's an alien concept. Debate wasn't a lot easier to learn. I find it somewhat odious, but occasionally necessary. Otherwise, when someone tells me something, I feel no great need to respond to it unless it's a direct request for information or it matters to me, somehow. When someone asks me for info, it's the same thing. I state what I think and that's pretty much all I feel it necessary to do. If the recipient needs more info, they're going to have to ask for it.

I don't assume someone will agree or disagree with my opinion, if it's offered. Most of the time, I don't really care whether they do or not. They ask, I tell them (assuming I feel like doing so) what I'm thinking. After that, they can take it or leave it.

There are times it takes me quite a while to process a thought stream. In real-time, I've got a several second lag between when the sound hits my ears and when I figure out what was said. Then it can take me, if it's not a very obvious communication (say, something filled with emotional nuance from someone I'm not familiar with) up to several days to sort out what it is they probably actually meant, and a few more to feel out my response (if I have one).

That all makes a real-time back and forth on a particular topic somewhat... difficult.



ValMikeSmith
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10 Apr 2010, 2:52 am

If you want to start an argument I would like to say STFU.

I may "evoke the fifth" (The right to remain silent).

If you are already my friend, we get along just fine and don't
ever argue, because my friends and I are very easy to get
along with and smart enough to know who has the best idea.



aspartame
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10 Apr 2010, 2:55 am

I also don't much like to argue. I figure it doesn't really matter what I think about another person's beliefs, especially since nothing I say is likely to change the way another person views things.



pensieve
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10 Apr 2010, 2:55 am

League_Girl wrote:
If you have something to say, say it. How is that hard?
When someone says something and you disagree, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
When someone says something and they are wrong, correct them. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a new idea, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have an opinion, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a point of view, say it. How can someone not have that ability?

I also say:
Now how can all these things be hard to do? Or is it just some lame excuse people make so they will back out of a discussion? A "hit and run" tactic I hate as another aspie describes it.


Well I for one have problems constructing a sentence but adding emotion to it makes it 10 times as hard to word it. And I don't disagree mainly for the fact that I could hurt someone and be thrown into an argument and I don't do good with confrontation. Correcting someone can reach the same conclusion too.
And the last few questions I can answer with: because I don't want to offend anybody.

Let me summarize your post: so far you've called people like me full of baloney, having a low IQ, not normal, and making a lame excuses.
So I thank you for making this all so clear to me. Maybe you should try a bit harder to understand people that aren't like you? Although I do understand...the whole black and white thinking that comes with AS.
My problem is I don't like confrontation, offending people and I can't talk about emotional things especially deep and personal ones. You've heard that some autistic people seem to lack empathy because they are paralyzed with emotion? Well yeah it's like that.


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League_Girl
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10 Apr 2010, 3:21 am

pensieve wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
If you have something to say, say it. How is that hard?
When someone says something and you disagree, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
When someone says something and they are wrong, correct them. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a new idea, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have an opinion, say it. How can someone not have that ability?
If you have a point of view, say it. How can someone not have that ability?

I also say:
Now how can all these things be hard to do? Or is it just some lame excuse people make so they will back out of a discussion? A "hit and run" tactic I hate as another aspie describes it.


Well I for one have problems constructing a sentence but adding emotion to it makes it 10 times as hard to word it. And I don't disagree mainly for the fact that I could hurt someone and be thrown into an argument and I don't do good with confrontation. Correcting someone can reach the same conclusion too.
And the last few questions I can answer with: because I don't want to offend anybody.

Let me summarize your post: so far you've called people like me full of baloney, having a low IQ, not normal, and making a lame excuses.
So I thank you for making this all so clear to me. Maybe you should try a bit harder to understand people that aren't like you? Although I do understand...the whole black and white thinking that comes with AS.
My problem is I don't like confrontation, offending people and I can't talk about emotional things especially deep and personal ones. You've heard that some autistic people seem to lack empathy because they are paralyzed with emotion? Well yeah it's like that.



Did you just call me black and white? If so, I guess we're even then.

It was an NT who said she can't argue and some people are unable too. I assumed she meant normal people, not people with disabilities.

I didn't think people take my post offensively. I figured people would explain how can people not have that ability or why people would claim they can't do it, etc. I don't want this all to turn into a drama flame fest and I sure hope it won't head there.


Quote:
I also don't much like to argue. I figure it doesn't really matter what I think about another person's beliefs, especially since nothing I say is likely to change the way another person views things.


I think choosing to not argue and being unable to are two different things.

I don't like arguing over pointless things so I leave it at that. I don't like arguing about things that get me all riled up due to my strong opinions. So it's best to leave those topics alone because I would hate to lose friends over their disturbing opinion or over a heated argument. Does that mean I am unable to argue? No. I am just choosing to not do it.

With me I say what I need to say and be done with it. I don't force people to believe what I believe in or over rule theirs. If I have nothing else to say, the discussion has ended.



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10 Apr 2010, 3:30 am

NT's could have the same autistic traits though. Some are not bothered to argue but then some could just not be able to have the words to argue. Ask your NT friend why she is unable to argue.
I've found many traits that we think are autistic many NT's can have in common. There was a thread started on a music forum I used to post at and it was about something you did that you thought others didn't do. Well naturally I wrote down autistic traits and a few people related to it.


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League_Girl
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10 Apr 2010, 4:09 am

Me and that NT aren't friends. She did tried to explain it but it was hard to understand. So I brought the discussion here but I have a feeling it's not going to go well. But I'm going to see what happens.

We keep hearing here how aspies tend to argue and I've learned that things we do, a person might see that as an argument. I don't think we mean to argue. It just happens when we express ourselves and when we are asking questions trying to understand someone's point of view and their opinions and people call that an argument. Same as when we think we're right, we are going to try and get our point across and back up our claims. If something doesn't make sense, we call it out and people call it an argument. I've been accused of arguing for doing all those things I asked in my OP you quoted. So I have accepted it's an argument since people call it that.

Basically an argument means a disagreement and if you have a different opinion than someone and you share it after that person has expressed theirs, you have just argued. I used to get accused of arguing all the time by people when I tell my views or correct them or ask questions and I decided to look the word up and bingo, it said to disagree not agree and no wonder people have accused me of arguing. But my husband sees us as having discussions than arguing and I know a typical person would say I am arguing with them. Even my ex who was an aspie said I argued and thought I always had to be right.

Now I am seeing the irony here about how aspies suck at arguing when I have read here aspies tend to do it.

Not all aspies do this of course.



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10 Apr 2010, 4:25 am

League_Girl wrote:
We keep hearing here how aspies tend to argue and I've learned that things we do, a person might see that as an argument. I don't think we mean to argue. It just happens when we express ourselves and when we are asking questions trying to understand someone's point of view and their opinions and people call that an argument. Same as when we think we're right, we are going to try and get our point across and back up our claims. If something doesn't make sense, we call it out and people call it an argument. I've been accused of arguing for doing all those things I asked in my OP you quoted. So I have accepted it's an argument since people call it that.

Ahh yes, I've stopped correcting people because it's seen as an argument. Like I know I'm right and want to show the person that, not for arguments sake but because it's what you think is right and you'd like to share this bit of knowledge.

League_Girl wrote:
Basically an argument means a disagreement and if you have a different opinion than someone and you share it after that person has expressed theirs, you have just argued.

I seem to be unable to do that verbally.

I think it's possible for an NT not being able to argue. But in the case of this NT woman could be that she wanted to get away from you and just said that. The statement doesn't sound like she was trying to teach you something but more give a reason to not continue talking to you. I don't know though because I wasn't there. But some people just say things that instead of trying to come up with the hidden meaning behind them it's best to just ignore them.


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10 Apr 2010, 6:35 am

I'm very unable to argue. I hate confrontation, with a passion, and I always come out of every argument, crying. That hasn't happened, for a long time, because I live by myself, now.


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b9
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10 Apr 2010, 7:02 am

i do not often argue.
i usually make an announcement, and then i resign from further debate.
if someone disagrees, then that is not important to me.
i have no interest in educating people or "setting their courses right".

sometimes people will disagree and wait for further input from me, but i generally do not bother responding.

when it is another person who says their opinion to me, i often have no interest in what they are talking about, and i do not even process whether i agree or disagree because i give no thought to what they said.

then they may become irate because i do not indicate whether i agree or disagree, but i can not force my mind to consider anything that is of no interest to me, so i will remain blank on the issue.

even when they say "oh come on mark!! take a minute to think about what i just said!!" i still remain blank, and it is like some internal mechanism that prevents me from processing what they said.

however, on rare occasions, i will process and reject what they say, but that is only when i am stuck with their company for an extended period (like in a car on a long drive). in those situations, i somehow manage to process what they say in order to rebuke it and shut them up.

an example of this is an acquaintance of mine who is on the border of paranoid schizophrenia (in my opinion) who, among many other things, is obsessed with conspiracy theories he has seen on the internet.

eg. he thinks that the "powers that be" are poisoning us by spraying us with chemicals from planes. he sees vapor trails from jets and concludes that they are "chem trails".
he points out planes leaving vapor trails in the sky and cites them as proof of his assertion, and i reason beyond my doubt that he is incorrect and present him with my reasoning, and he then rejects my reasoning, so i come to the conclusion that he is cognitively aberrant and inform him of that, and i then refuse to discuss the matter further.

whatever. i have said enough for this thread.



ProfessorAspie
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10 Apr 2010, 7:53 am

interesting logical near-contradiction here.

Essentially this person was asked to construct an argument that they are unable to construct an argument? It wouldn't seem like the other party has a shot of "winning" the debate.

Kurt Godel would love this one.



b9
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10 Apr 2010, 8:29 am

ProfessorAspie wrote:
interesting logical near-contradiction here.

Essentially this person was asked to construct an argument that they are unable to construct an argument? It wouldn't seem like the other party has a shot of "winning" the debate.

Kurt Godel would love this one.

if your post was about my post then i am sorry it made no sense to me.
i am not very smart.
if it was not about my post then proceed and forget about what i said in this post.



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10 Apr 2010, 8:38 am

I am like a few here who have trouble arguing because of anxiety. It depends on how aggressive someone is with me. I prefer it if two people are exchanging ideas and POV's in an open relaxed manner. There are many things that were considered absolute fact until suddenly evidence is found that refutes it. If some one is talking to me like they are a drill sergeant or something, it doesn't matter if I have the facts that back my assertion up or not, because I would not be able to access them. My mind would be a blank. Anybody who talks to me like that isn't going to be interested in my opinion anyway.



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10 Apr 2010, 8:44 am

I can't really argue. But I surprise myself sometimes.

b9, I don't think that the post was about you specifically, I think it was more about a logical contradiction in the thread itself. But I also think that contradiction does not really exist, because not being argumentative does not mean being incapable of constructing arguments.