Just a shot in the dark about jerks v. "nice"

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Anyone who's been on this board for more than a week is probably aware of the whole jerks vs. nice guys whining that's on here, (mostly by the nice jerks ).

I have a thought experiment I want some of you to try that might explain why it can be true. This is just a random suggestion that I think may have some merit.

Here it goes: I think one way to define what constitutes a "nice guy" or "nice girl" can be the kind of guy or girl that your parents would choose for you if it was their choice.

Like the idea of your parent's idea of what's right for you?

If not, then maybe that's why "nice guys finish last."

I'd rather be with a nice guy, than with a jerk. I've been given a hard enough time, by jerks in Elementary and High School.

This is going to sound harsh but I only have the best interest of men who are having problems with this in mind.

My experience with guys who consider themselves "nice guys" is, they aren't really nice guys. They are clingy, passive, refuse to be equal partners in the relationship, refuse to contribute the exchange of wants, ideas, needs, and desires that a healthy relationship has, makes the girl make all the decisions and thus pins all the responsibility of the relationship on her. They also think treating a woman nicely means she has an obligation to fall in love with them. AND, they also tend to not take the opportunities to advance their relationships beyond the friend stage when they present themselves (People with AS aren't expected to know where these "on ramps" are though as it can be hard to gauge and the proper course of action can be difficult to distinguish)

Then these "nice guys" see men who they deem not as nice as them because they don't put the woman on a pedestal and actually have some self respect, and unfairly label them as "bad boys".

Women generally like a man who can be an equal most of the time, a leader some of the time, and passive on special occasions. (I've done a lot of research on all of this if anyone is wondering)

...Huh? I can't tell what you're getting at there.

A nitpick, however - There's no such thing as a "nice girl," not within the context of the whole "nice guys finish last" paradigm. The reason for that is that the things men look for in a woman, versus women look for in men, are very different, stereotypically. Therefore, identical behaviors between one man and one woman will yield very different results in their attempts to find an interested partner.

More specifically, women key into, and judge, men's social strengths and confidence more than men do towards women. A very large percentage of men don't care all that much whether a woman is socially savvy, or high up in the social hierarchy, or confident. Compare this to the fact that most women(to understate) care a whole lot about a man's social position, and confidence.

Therefore, in order for a woman to be continually passed up by men, akin to what happens to the 'nice guy,' she would have to display very different behaviors from the 'nice guy.'

Again, sorry for nitpicking, and getting forceful about it. But by now, there's enough discussion around the net about this topic that there's very little ambiguity left regarding what behaviors define the 'nice guy.' The cause-effect relationship is extremely reliable, and the pattern is well documented, it's not really up for interpretation in any significant way.

>Example
..>Example
....>Example
......>Example
........>Example
..........>Example

Apologies if I'm over-abrasive. It's an issue I take to heart.

I don't view your post to be abrasive, just honest. I think some guys here could really learn stuff from reading your examples.

For me the very simplified version of this is "People will usually treat you as you treat yourself". If a person doesn't show self respect, they are unlightly to attract a partner who will respect them, they are very lightly to attract a person who will use them in some way (either consciously or unconsciously).

The articles Sound has used as examples are quite correct, when a woman says they want a nice guy, they really don't mean a subservient one. Women (healthy ones) want a guy who does not put them on a pedestal, who care about them but are not the entire world to them, who have opinions and self respect (as well as respect for them).

i think guys who post stuff about being "nice", or being a "jerk", and who are sexually frustrated, would benefit from having a "nice jerk" themselves.

nice guys usually "shoot" in the dark i guess

The dark triad seems to work.
For men, at least.
The dark triad is
Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy.
So Machiavellianism basically has to do with manipulation, rubbing people the right way to get what you want.
This is of course related to psychopathy which is related to narcissism.
Also, read this Why do women really love self-obsessed psychopaths.

I think the traits that my mother would quietly prefer my prospective girlfriends to have (down-to-earth, strong, caring) are pretty attractive traits in and of themselves.

i think the reason i've wound up with the jerks i have is because they tend to at least be more verbal with things in general. i find in the long haul (usually) the nice guys bottle up the things (they don't know i'm missing) that bother them and it comes out later...... which really hurts both people involved.

need a loud nice guy

Exactly. They don't contribute that emotional/intellectual component to the relationship that most women (even AS women!)need like men need sex.

"Nice guys" that is.

I was with two jerks and they were my ex's. My last one seemed like a nice guy and my mom said he was a nice guy but after hearing about his views and opinions and things he said to me, she decided he was a jerk. He was ignorant, had a bigoted mind, was narrow minded, and he never listened. He even said my school dummied up my school work and she wanted to slap him for saying that.

My first jerk seemed nice too but he was lazy. He wanted more of a mommy than a girlfriend and he didn't want to spend his money on bills and gas and food. He complained about it. He even wanted me to be his cab driver because "it be cheaper" because he didn't want to fill his whole car up with gas and bam less spending money he has. It took me a few years to figure this one out how it be cheaper if I took him everywhere. Also I wasn't that important to him because he didn't even remember my birthday and his friend was more important. Also he used me for sex and he also wouldn't stop joking with me and teasing when I told him over and over to stop because I'm literal and I need him to be serious and not joke all the time. He expected me to get used to it because "it's part of who he is" and thought I would learned after a while. No I don't I just stop taking people seriously when they do that and I don't listen to a word they say. So when they are serious, I would think they are joking. I sure don't want to do that in a relationship. It was like having a big kid than a boyfriend. Plus he never respected my opinions and beliefs and would shove his political views in my face and not drop it till I agreed with him. He would also make up excuses to weasel his way out of responsibilities because he wanted me to do everything for him. When I come up with an idea, he come up with another excuse. I don't think he was ready to bean adult because he once complained how "ret*d" it is how they take the fun away from you when you're an adult and make you work and do things. He used that word on everything he didn't like such as having to buy food, pay to live, work to live, gas prices.

Everyone says my ex's were jerks and I didn't know at the time they were. I thought my ex would change once I help him because of the kind of parents he had and no support from them and he did want to work when we first met and his parents weren't helping him move forward. My second ex, I thought he would just learn once I educate him because we're all ignorant when we don't know stuff or understand things. But I sometimes forget not everyone changes their thoughts on something when they learn more about it or get told more about it so I thought he would too because I do. I didn't know he was pure ignorant. I knew he was ignorant when we first met and I thought I could change it when I educate him and correct him so he knows because that is how I work and I expect it in everyone else too unless they're that stupid.

My my husband is a nice guy and sweet. Even he says they were jerks.

So yeah I was one of those women who had jerks.

Last edited by League_Girl on 24 Apr 2010, 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I've had long term relationships with nice guys.... They are very full-filling... I don't agree with what you said at all, actually.

But I think it is the AS that requires VERBAL communication... I'm just saying I've tended to notice jerky guys voice a lot more opinions in "realtime" interactions. For me, in a way that's a trade-off that may make the other jerk qualities more tolerable. Especially, since their verbalization may be geared towards correcting you or something controlling... which is bad, but it's kind of reassuring in a way... because I always feel lost and that I'm doing the wrong thing. In those relationships, it was kind of like "at least i know what i'm doing wrong."

I monitor myself a lot better... Especially since finding out about AS and the types of mistakes I'm prone to... or why the things I do might result in A, B or C for my partner. But i find that it's a tough line to walk... Finding those who speak their mind without being an asshat.

Yeah well that is a jerk! And a real jerk! Not a "jerk".


A lot of "nice guys" turn into real jerks when they try to correct their niceness, kind of like, a lot of us can become loud and annoying when we try to correct introvertedness, because we don't have a very good way of gauging what is socially acceptable and what isn't and it can seem a bit arbitrary I think.

There's actually a guy who gives seminars for "nice guys" on how to become average, relatively nice guys. I really encourage "nice guys" to go to them.

Thanks for sharing these - some of them were quite enlightening for me, particularly the first article and the comments underneath it.

It's disheartening that shyness seems to be a guaranteed turn-off for most women, though. I feel I can (or already have) overcome most of the nice-guy problems raised, such as learning to like myself more and not being overly passive, but it's difficult to imagine shrugging off my social anxieties entirely even if I do get the other things right.

Are quiet people really doomed to fail if they can't change themselves, or are there some (non-imaginary) girls out there who might actually be drawn to that? I understand the importance of "strong" now in the "strong silent type" stereotype that people sometimes admire, but can the "silent" part still be seen as a positive trait?