Page 2 of 3 [ 42 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Apr 2010, 3:17 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Apr 2010, 6:56 am

bully_on_speed wrote:
if the word of god wasnt ment to be taken literaly why was it written down?


Here is a possible reason. Invoking god or demons is a way of producing fear and compliance in others. The god concept is a tool for power tripping. God is an ueber Boogeyman.

Your turn, now.

ruveyn



musicboxforever
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 518

29 Apr 2010, 8:54 am

Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.


This is taking us into a whole other issue, but some people say that spirits have appeared to them. Not to me personally, but I have been told by other people that they have seen demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Of course, not having seen one myself I can't say for sure if they are visible when they want to be, but my Mum and my Sister stayed in a B&B once and definately saw something. They were so freaked out they asked to be swapped to a different room. And my Aunt used to work in a "haunted" hotel and stuff happened in there practically everyday. And I know quite a few other people with similar stories.

About God being invisible,

I think I've found something that could be taken literally in Exodus 33:11

"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend."

That could be taken literally.

However, if you compare it with what was said earlier in Exodus:
"And he (Moses) said, I beseech you, show me your glory....
But He (God) said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

So it is usually taken that the speaking face to face means that they spoke as friends, they were on familiar terms. I can't remember my point now... I've been doing other stuff since I started typing this. I don't know if it means that it's not so much that God choses to be invisible, but more that we can't physically cope with seeing him. He only showed Moses his glory, but even that had a huge effect on Moses. His face shone brilliantly after their meeting.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

29 Apr 2010, 9:11 am

musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.


This is taking us into a whole other issue, but some people say that spirits have appeared to them. Not to me personally, but I have been told by other people that they have seen demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Of course, not having seen one myself I can't say for sure if they are visible when they want to be, but my Mum and my Sister stayed in a B&B once and definately saw something. They were so freaked out they asked to be swapped to a different room. And my Aunt used to work in a "haunted" hotel and stuff happened in there practically everyday. And I know quite a few other people with similar stories.

About God being invisible,

I think I've found something that could be taken literally in Exodus 33:11

"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend."

That could be taken literally.

However, if you compare it with what was said earlier in Exodus:
"And he (Moses) said, I beseech you, show me your glory....
But He (God) said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

So it is usually taken that the speaking face to face means that they spoke as friends, they were on familiar terms. I can't remember my point now... I've been doing other stuff since I started typing this. I don't know if it means that it's not so much that God choses to be invisible, but more that we can't physically cope with seeing him. He only showed Moses his glory, but even that had a huge effect on Moses. His face shone brilliantly after their meeting.


How do you know that Moses (assuming he existed) did not see a holographic projection from an interstellar spaceship? Because Moses thought it was some sort of supernatural creature doesn't mean we must. That famous burning bush, for instance could have merely been illuminated by a strong distant spotlight from a hovering spacecraft. Just because Moses was fooled why should we be?



musicboxforever
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 518

29 Apr 2010, 9:17 am

Sand wrote:
musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.


This is taking us into a whole other issue, but some people say that spirits have appeared to them. Not to me personally, but I have been told by other people that they have seen demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Of course, not having seen one myself I can't say for sure if they are visible when they want to be, but my Mum and my Sister stayed in a B&B once and definately saw something. They were so freaked out they asked to be swapped to a different room. And my Aunt used to work in a "haunted" hotel and stuff happened in there practically everyday. And I know quite a few other people with similar stories.

About God being invisible,

I think I've found something that could be taken literally in Exodus 33:11

"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend."

That could be taken literally.

However, if you compare it with what was said earlier in Exodus:
"And he (Moses) said, I beseech you, show me your glory....
But He (God) said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

So it is usually taken that the speaking face to face means that they spoke as friends, they were on familiar terms. I can't remember my point now... I've been doing other stuff since I started typing this. I don't know if it means that it's not so much that God choses to be invisible, but more that we can't physically cope with seeing him. He only showed Moses his glory, but even that had a huge effect on Moses. His face shone brilliantly after their meeting.


How do you know that Moses (assuming he existed) did not see a holographic projection from an interstellar spaceship? Because Moses thought it was some sort of supernatural creature doesn't mean we must. That famous burning bush, for instance could have merely been illuminated by a strong distant spotlight from a hovering spacecraft. Just because Moses was fooled why should we be?


We don't. We all just have to weigh up whether we think it was a hologram or a spirit being, or just a story.



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,943
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

29 Apr 2010, 9:43 am

musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.


This is taking us into a whole other issue, but some people say that spirits have appeared to them. Not to me personally, but I have been told by other people that they have seen demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Of course, not having seen one myself I can't say for sure if they are visible when they want to be, but my Mum and my Sister stayed in a B&B once and definately saw something. They were so freaked out they asked to be swapped to a different room. And my Aunt used to work in a "haunted" hotel and stuff happened in there practically everyday. And I know quite a few other people with similar stories.

About God being invisible,

I think I've found something that could be taken literally in Exodus 33:11

"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend."

That could be taken literally.

However, if you compare it with what was said earlier in Exodus:
"And he (Moses) said, I beseech you, show me your glory....
But He (God) said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

So it is usually taken that the speaking face to face means that they spoke as friends, they were on familiar terms. I can't remember my point now... I've been doing other stuff since I started typing this. I don't know if it means that it's not so much that God choses to be invisible, but more that we can't physically cope with seeing him. He only showed Moses his glory, but even that had a huge effect on Moses. His face shone brilliantly after their meeting.


How do you know that Moses (assuming he existed) did not see a holographic projection from an interstellar spaceship? Because Moses thought it was some sort of supernatural creature doesn't mean we must. That famous burning bush, for instance could have merely been illuminated by a strong distant spotlight from a hovering spacecraft. Just because Moses was fooled why should we be?


We don't. We all just have to weigh up whether we think it was a hologram or a spirit being, or just a story.


You also aren't taking into account other facets of Biblically recorded history. Taking the Bible as a record of facts, you also have various prophets that God used to make His points. I love the story of Elijah in 2 Kings 1 when the king arrogantly demands that Elijah be arrested and sends the company of 50 men to bring him back. Elijah says, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down fro heaven and consume you and your 50 men." Interesting isn't it, that some big, hairy guy that might have seemed mentally unstable has direct access to a spaceship or otherwise orbital death ray? Not just once, but TWICE, and likely would have happened a third time if some degree of humility hadn't been expressed.

Or what about 2 Kings 19? King Hezekiah faces certain defeat at the hands of the Assyrians, and yet the Assyrian army of roughly 185,000 (more or less) mysteriously died overnight. Seriously, why would any alien civilization even CARE about what happens to one group of people?



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 94
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

29 Apr 2010, 1:18 pm

AngelRho wrote:
musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
musicboxforever wrote:
Sand wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Anyway, that's my attempt. Maybe there are some good theologians on here that can give a better answer?


That was a pretty decent shot at it. I think what your saying though, by indirect inference, indicates that God chose not to be seen for a reason (aside from what having such a rush of perception into something so gargantuan would have on our central nervous systems) - we weren't meant to focus on the physical or meant to chase after the question 'what does God look like?' as its utterly irrelevant and a physical revelation would only aid to lock our minds in thinking in the wrong direction.


Actually, God is merely following the supernatural trend. All those well known demons that cause my sink to plug up, that make me drop dishes on the floor, that follow me through the cemetery at night, and so forth, have gone invisible too. We have to accept that.


This is taking us into a whole other issue, but some people say that spirits have appeared to them. Not to me personally, but I have been told by other people that they have seen demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them. Of course, not having seen one myself I can't say for sure if they are visible when they want to be, but my Mum and my Sister stayed in a B&B once and definately saw something. They were so freaked out they asked to be swapped to a different room. And my Aunt used to work in a "haunted" hotel and stuff happened in there practically everyday. And I know quite a few other people with similar stories.

About God being invisible,

I think I've found something that could be taken literally in Exodus 33:11

"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend."

That could be taken literally.

However, if you compare it with what was said earlier in Exodus:
"And he (Moses) said, I beseech you, show me your glory....
But He (God) said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

So it is usually taken that the speaking face to face means that they spoke as friends, they were on familiar terms. I can't remember my point now... I've been doing other stuff since I started typing this. I don't know if it means that it's not so much that God choses to be invisible, but more that we can't physically cope with seeing him. He only showed Moses his glory, but even that had a huge effect on Moses. His face shone brilliantly after their meeting.


How do you know that Moses (assuming he existed) did not see a holographic projection from an interstellar spaceship? Because Moses thought it was some sort of supernatural creature doesn't mean we must. That famous burning bush, for instance could have merely been illuminated by a strong distant spotlight from a hovering spacecraft. Just because Moses was fooled why should we be?


We don't. We all just have to weigh up whether we think it was a hologram or a spirit being, or just a story.


You also aren't taking into account other facets of Biblically recorded history. Taking the Bible as a record of facts, you also have various prophets that God used to make His points. I love the story of Elijah in 2 Kings 1 when the king arrogantly demands that Elijah be arrested and sends the company of 50 men to bring him back. Elijah says, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down fro heaven and consume you and your 50 men." Interesting isn't it, that some big, hairy guy that might have seemed mentally unstable has direct access to a spaceship or otherwise orbital death ray? Not just once, but TWICE, and likely would have happened a third time if some degree of humility hadn't been expressed.

Or what about 2 Kings 19? King Hezekiah faces certain defeat at the hands of the Assyrians, and yet the Assyrian army of roughly 185,000 (more or less) mysteriously died overnight. Seriously, why would any alien civilization even CARE about what happens to one group of people?


You'd be surprised at what a great sense of humor those little gray have.



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,943
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

29 Apr 2010, 1:45 pm

Terribly sorry... I got caught up in the fanciful idea that all this work might have to do with space alien activity that I practically ignored Musicbox's comment.

I studied that passage from Exodus a few months ago, and that's not the last time something like that has been mentioned in the Bible.

The nature of God Himself is spirit, which means He is an invisible being.

To see the "glory of God" is not to see God's face, but rather some physical manifestation in some form of radiation--whether that's light, heat, or otherwise (we'll never know).

God maintained a physical presence among the Israelites in the form of cloud by day, fire by night. It was well known among the Israelites at that time that coming face-to-face with God Himself would result in immediate death, and at times they feared imminent death because they made the mistake of confusing the voice of God and the physical signs of His presence with God Himself.

For Moses to talk face-to-face with God as with a friend, we have to reconcile this in some way that it does not contradict the Biblical notion that "God is Spirit" and that "None may see God and live." Genesis and Exodus have a number of references to "the Angel of the Lord" and "God," often very close together. Which is it? God? Or an "Angel of the Lord?" Here's what I think: Moses could NOT have spoken face-to-face with God because to have seen God would have meant death. That contradicts the wording of the passage. If Moses HAD spoken face-to-face with God, that would contradict "No one has seen God and lived." The only possible explanation I can think of is that God took on an earthly form. I don't know for sure and have no way to prove this through Biblical text, but I think Moses could possibly have been meeting with a pre-incarnate Christ. Jesus taught that "The Father and the Son are one," so it would not be wrong to say that in talking to "God-with-us" in the person of Jesus was who Moses was speaking with.

I don't KNOW that, of course, but it wouldn't be inconsistent. One could also say that it wasn't Jesus, just God taking on human form. All one can do is guess.

Another way that passage could be interpreted would be slightly less literally--referring to the closeness between God and Moses. Face-to-face represents such a closeness and is not an indication that Moses was actually looking at God's face.

Any of those explanations would work, I think, without being contradictory. It certainly would not detract from the Biblical story to say that God appeared "in the flesh" prior to the virgin birth. There's no reason to say God can't come and go as He pleases, and it certainly wouldn't have been beyond His power to take on an earthly form when necessary to accomplish His purpose.



Khan_Sama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 882
Location: New Human Empire

30 Apr 2010, 12:57 am

In the Baha'i faith, that concept is not taken literally. It replies that man's soul is in God's image - man merely has the ability to manifest good qualities which reflect a tiny essence of God.

The concept of God can never be understood by human beings as it's a concept beyond human understanding.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

30 Apr 2010, 1:57 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I've seen this pop up a couple times tonight and I'm a bit confused - I always thought that 'made in God's image' was more relative to our capacities, ie. supposedly the law of attraction through faith or rendering possibilities by calling things that aren't as if they are (Dark City tuning-lite). The old testament seemed to be filled with encounters where it was noted that no one had any clue with 'God' looked like (admittedly Job had an encounter - I'd have to read it again to see how literal or descriptive his sighting was), same with the new testament outside of Jesus.

I'd always thought however that the notion that God was humanoid simply came from a Hollywood or pop cultural misread, did I miss something?


The terminology "image of God" in relation to human beings comes from Genesis 1:27 and 9:6.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Apr 2010, 2:34 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
In the Baha'i faith, that concept is not taken literally. It replies that man's soul is in God's image - man merely has the ability to manifest good qualities which reflect a tiny essence of God.

The concept of God can never be understood by human beings as it's a concept beyond human understanding.


Which makes it indistinguishable from nonsense.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

30 Apr 2010, 3:22 am

ruveyn wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
In the Baha'i faith, that concept is not taken literally. It replies that man's soul is in God's image - man merely has the ability to manifest good qualities which reflect a tiny essence of God.

The concept of God can never be understood by human beings as it's a concept beyond human understanding.


Which makes it indistinguishable from nonsense.

ruveyn


Though I'm a Christian and not Baha'i, the incapability of the mind to fully understand God does not make God nonsense any more than the incapability of the human mind to fully understand all aspects of quantum electrodynamics makes QED into nonsense. Heck, few people even grasp simpler things like Kirchoff's laws.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Apr 2010, 9:23 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Though I'm a Christian and not Baha'i, the incapability of the mind to fully understand God does not make God nonsense any more than the incapability of the human mind to fully understand all aspects of quantum electrodynamics makes QED into nonsense. Heck, few people even grasp simpler things like Kirchoff's laws.


Quantum physics raises hob with common sense, however it can be grasped mathematically and what is even more important is there is a overwhelming mass of experimental evidence indicating the quantum physics is empirically correct. There is not an iota of objective evidence for the existence of God, god, the gods, demons, ghosts, spirits and other non physical things.

The fact we are communicating over a system of computers operating using semi-conductors, is a verification of quantum physics.

ruveyn



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,943
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

30 Apr 2010, 11:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
there is a overwhelming mass of experimental evidence indicating the quantum physics is empirically correct. There is not an iota of objective evidence for the existence of God,

ruveyn


What about the mind as empirical evidence of God? Note that I said "evidence," not "proof."



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Apr 2010, 11:56 am

AngelRho wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
there is a overwhelming mass of experimental evidence indicating the quantum physics is empirically correct. There is not an iota of objective evidence for the existence of God,

ruveyn


What about the mind as empirical evidence of God? Note that I said "evidence," not "proof."[/quote

What "mind". There is brain. Find me some objective evidence that such a spooky thing as "mind" exists. Can you use a scanning machine to reveal a "mind" in a body not your own? I bet you can't. If you can't scan it and you can't measure it, it is probably nonsense.

ruveyn



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,943
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

30 Apr 2010, 1:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Can you use a scanning machine to reveal a "mind" in a body not your own? I bet you can't. If you can't scan it and you can't measure it, it is probably nonsense.

ruveyn


Consciousness can't be scanned, etc. But it is most certainly a part of sense experience. Those of us who aren't in denial recognize that we can "sense" that we have a mind. There's nothing deep, profound, or "spooky" about that at all.