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Aimless
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04 Jun 2010, 7:08 pm

1. Do you think a diagnosis of schizoid personality disorder is invalid if evidence of social deficits are evident in early childhood?

2. If you don't feel instinctively whether people like you or are just being tolerant, is that an indication of a deficit in theory of mind?

3. Does being right brain oriented significantly change the way AS characteristics manifest?



Danielismyname
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04 Jun 2010, 7:31 pm

1. Schizoid PD of childhood is most likely milder AS, rather than distinct from ASDs. Same with Schizoid PD in older individuals.

2. I don't like the whole "theory of mind" thingy, but it's showing you're unable to read the correct social cues (verbal and nonverbal).

3. Nah, as the deficits in white matter in all ASDS are also in the basal ganglia, so both sides of the brain aren't talking to one another properly. Well, I'm sure it won't change it all that much compared to the million other variables.



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04 Jun 2010, 7:39 pm

@ Daniel
1. Aha!
2. I don't like it either-it can mean too many different things
3. I'm thinking of the stereotypical view of someone with Asperger's as being very logical and systems oriented. You're right though about the amount of variables. If only the medical community realized this. Is the basal ganglia the network between the two halves?



ViperaAspis
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04 Jun 2010, 8:00 pm

Re: #3, no, you're thinking of the corpus callosum.


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Lene
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04 Jun 2010, 8:03 pm

Aimless wrote:
1. Do you think a diagnosis of schizoid personality disorder is invalid if evidence of social deficits are evident in early childhood?


I'm not sure. Technically, you don't diagnose a personality disorder until the person is 18 because the personality changes a lot during a person's teens. I don't think that means that traits or characteristcs cannot be present before then.

Quote:
2. If you don't feel instinctively whether people like you or are just being tolerant, is that an indication of a deficit in theory of mind?


Nope, that's called being normal. Many people make the same mistake, but the thicker skinned ones are oblivious to being unwelcome, whilst people with low self esteem worry about it constantly. It would be different if the other party was actively being rude and unwelcoming.

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3. Does being right brain oriented significantly change the way AS characteristics manifest?


The diagnostic criteria don't really pay much attention to brain orientation.



Aimless
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04 Jun 2010, 8:13 pm

I guess I don't really understand personality disorders then. Aren't they considered psychological conditions? Would something traumatic have to have happened before the age of 2, which is when my mother says my problems were evident?



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04 Jun 2010, 8:20 pm

Aimless wrote:
1. Do you think a diagnosis of schizoid personality disorder is invalid if evidence of social deficits are evident in early childhood?

2. If you don't feel instinctively whether people like you or are just being tolerant, is that an indication of a deficit in theory of mind?

3. Does being right brain oriented significantly change the way AS characteristics manifest?


1. Dunno

2. Yes

3. I suspect so. In the past I have loosely divide aspies into two categories, which I dub the 'Mystic' and the 'Technician', which could refer to right and left respectively. I put myself in with the 'Mystics'. Of course, this is all pseudobollocks, I know nothing about brains, and I don't even know if I have AS or what.


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Danielismyname
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04 Jun 2010, 8:29 pm

ViperaAspis wrote:
Re: #3, no, you're thinking of the corpus callosum.


That's it. My mistake.

The basal ganglia is also affected, though it's due to an increase in overall volume, which is where the obsessions, rituals and motor mannerisms are said to come from. Which is in stark contrast to the smaller size of the corpus callosum in individuals with an ASD.



conundrum
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04 Jun 2010, 8:48 pm

Aimless wrote:
I guess I don't really understand personality disorders then. Aren't they considered psychological conditions? Would something traumatic have to have happened before the age of 2, which is when my mother says my problems were evident?


Hi, Aimless. NO ONE fully understands personality disorders! They are psychological conditions, but on their own "Axis" (large-large-LARGE category) of the DSM (psychologists'/psychiatrists' handbook). In other words, they are not the same as, say, disorders like depression, schizophrenia or autism.

In some cases, it is a matter of early trauma--for example, those with borderline PD usually endured severe abuse, of all kinds, from a very early age (but not everyone who was abused severely develops borderline PD).

With antisocial PD, some (not all!) studies revealed a difference in brain functioning from age-matched controls--those with antisocial PD seemed to have the brains of children/teenagers (hence the impulse control issues).

Schizoid and schizotypal PD can be precursors to full-blown schizophrenia in some cases, but not always.

And so on....To understand the disorders, you have to understand the formation of personality, which is a huge topic on its own. Most universities (including mine) have a separate Psych class all about personality development.

To answer #1: Lene is correct--personality disorders cannot be properly diagnosed until after age 18. Schizoid PD is mainly characterized by an active DISINTEREST in forming relationships, while many with AS WANT TO but don't know how to interact socially in order to do so. With that being said, I realize this is a gross generalization--I was simply "not interested" for many years either, mainly to avoid the drama factor.

#2: I don't think so either. Sometimes you can tell, sometimes you can't. Even NT's can make that mistake.

#3: It probably doesn't really matter, except for (perhaps) the type of special interest one has. Actually, I take that back--my bf is into musical composition/analysis, car engine rebuilds, and computer repair. Sounds like a bit of both.


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05 Jun 2010, 12:28 am

conundrum wrote:
Schizoid PD is mainly characterized by an active DISINTEREST in forming relationships, while many with AS WANT TO but don't know how to interact socially in order to do so. With that being said, I realize this is a gross generalization--I was simply "not interested" for many years either, mainly to avoid the drama factor.


How would one differentiate a person who does not want to form relationships from someone who has given up? I'm thinking someone who has decided, "no one in the world has wanted me, so I'll pre-emptively reject everyone, since I'm sick of all the bad experiences." Sort of "sour grapes," "I didn't want any friends anyway."



carltcwc
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05 Jun 2010, 12:36 am

1. Schizoid pd is similar to the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. It can begin in childhood or adolence/early adulthood.
2. Some people are tolerant, some are not. Some people are judgemental, some people are not.
3. Its probablly differant in differant people. I have taken tests that show Im about equal in right and left brained. Some people argue that autistic spectrum disorders come with being right or left brained, but its probablly the same as it is for anyone else.



conundrum
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05 Jun 2010, 1:13 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
conundrum wrote:
Schizoid PD is mainly characterized by an active DISINTEREST in forming relationships, while many with AS WANT TO but don't know how to interact socially in order to do so. With that being said, I realize this is a gross generalization--I was simply "not interested" for many years either, mainly to avoid the drama factor.


How would one differentiate a person who does not want to form relationships from someone who has given up? I'm thinking someone who has decided, "no one in the world has wanted me, so I'll pre-emptively reject everyone, since I'm sick of all the bad experiences." Sort of "sour grapes," "I didn't want any friends anyway."


Good point. Okay, grabbing my DSM-IV-TR to refresh my memory a bit:

[quote/]

Diagnostic Criteria for 299.80 Asperger's Disorder:

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression,
body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a
lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one
of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is
abnormal in either intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-
body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of
functioning.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative
phrases used by age 3 years).

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-
help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

[/quote]

Btw, I don't like that it's called a "Disorder" either, and A (3) makes no sense to me either--what about talking about one's special interests? Also, the DSM-IV-TR files this under "Disorders Usually First Diagnosed In Infancy, Childhood, or Adolescence" (Axis I)

[quote/]

Diagnostic Criteria for 301.20 Schizoid Personality Disorder:

A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

(1) neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
(2) almost always chooses solitary activities
(3) has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
(4) takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
(5) lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
(6) appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
(7) shows emotional coldness, detachment or flattened affectivity

B. Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another
Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a
general medical condition.

Note: If criteria are met prior to the onset of Schizophrenia, add "Premorbid," e.g., "Schizoid Personality Disorder (Premorbid)."

[quote/]

Schizoid PD is on "Axis II"--Personality Disorders (and, for some reason, Mental Retardation).

It also says

[/quote] There may be great difficulty differentiating individuals with Schizoid Personality Disorder from those with milder forms of Autistic Disorder and from those with Asperger's Disorder. Milder forms of Autistic Disorder and Asperger's Disorder are differentiated by more severely impaired social interaction and stereotyped behaviors and interests. [quote/]

So--The biggest difference I see is that someone with Schizoid PD would probably have no special interests and, in general, would probably lead a pretty dull life with no desire for change. Also, it does not seem to arise from any previous negative experiences with attempting to socialize--it just happens.

From what I know of the people on this board alone (including myself), even without the DSM, that is NOT the case with AS!

The other distinctions seem to be mere technicalities: age of onset, criteria for other disorders, etc.

With all that being said, both still seem pretty dry/stereotypical when you re-read them, not to say incomplete. With each individual comes a different set of experiences.

P.S. Those of you who dislike the DSM--I don't blame you. Granted, it's SUPPOSED to sound clinical, but still....


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Lene
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05 Jun 2010, 9:21 am

I prefer the ICD 10 myself.