Did John the Baptist or Jesus invent water baptism?

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pgd
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29 Jul 2010, 8:16 pm

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

ruveyn
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29 Jul 2010, 9:02 pm

pgd wrote:

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

Water purification rites are built into the Jewish Halachah ("law").

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one-A-N
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31 Jul 2010, 1:14 am

pgd wrote:

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

John the Baptist - hence the name.

Traditional Jewish "baptisms" were self-washings, as far as I understand. John washed the penitents (or at least dunked them or poured water over them), rather than have them wash themselves. Jesus followed John's practice, because he came along after John had begun his ministry - although it was his disciples who did the baptisms, according to the New Testament, rather than Jesus himself.

Mitsouko
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31 Jul 2010, 3:31 am

John's baptism can be linked with the mikvah- a ritual bath by immersion used for spiritual purification. Gentiles were required to undergo the mikvah when converting to Judaism.

ruveyn
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31 Jul 2010, 7:09 am

pgd wrote:

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

The Jews had the mikvah long before JtB.

ruveyn

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31 Jul 2010, 5:51 pm

Many pre-christian pagan faiths also made use of baptismal rites.

Either way, neither JC or JtB invented it.
As the Christian church didn't exist during their lives either, neither one introduced it into Christianity either.
If fact, if I remember correctly, it wasn't commonly practiced, if at all until about 200 CE... about the same time as the gospels were being standardized if I recall correctly.

skafather84
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31 Jul 2010, 6:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:

pgd wrote:

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

Water purification rites are built into the Jewish Halachah ("law").

ruveyn

And most likely existed before that.

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Vexcalibur
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31 Jul 2010, 7:10 pm

No patent was filed, so officially, neither did.

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AngelRho
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31 Jul 2010, 10:40 pm

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

pgd wrote:

Did the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, invent water baptism or did Jesus Christ invent it and John the Baptist simply used it?

Water purification rites are built into the Jewish Halachah ("law").

ruveyn

And most likely existed before that.

It's the same kind of thing as circumcision: God instructed Abraham and his descendants to circumcise all the males in their families. But circumcision is hardly a rite that began with Abraham. There is evidence that other cultures adopted the practice as well.

Ritual washing was also part of Judaic tradition LONG before the time of John the Baptist, so it's hardly his invention. John saw himself as paving the way for Jesus' teachings. Jesus was Himself baptized by John in obedience to the will of the Father. It was also done as an example to Jesus' disciples as to what they should do. The rite by definition is only properly done by full immersion. I believe most Christians view baptism as having been fulfilled in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For us, it means that we were dead in sin, buried our sin with Christ, and are reborn with new life.

one-A-N
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01 Aug 2010, 1:49 am

The point being missed here: previous washings were self-washings; John's baptism was NOT a self-washing - you got washed by someone else, you were passive instead of active.

AngelRho
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01 Aug 2010, 7:00 am

one-A-N wrote:

The point being missed here: previous washings were self-washings; John's baptism was NOT a self-washing - you got washed by someone else, you were passive instead of active.

Except someone who HAD been washed had to present themselves before a priest, particularly if the person was suffering from a skin disease.

one-A-N
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01 Aug 2010, 8:26 am

AngelRho wrote:

one-A-N wrote:

The point being missed here: previous washings were self-washings; John's baptism was NOT a self-washing - you got washed by someone else, you were passive instead of active.

Except someone who HAD been washed had to present themselves before a priest, particularly if the person was suffering from a skin disease.

??? What are you referring to?

The people baptised by John the Baptist or by Christ's disciples did not have to present themselves to priests. People healed of diseases that made them unclean (eg leprosy) had to present themselves to priests to be certified clean again.

I reiterate: before John the Baptist, Jewish washings involved the person washing themselves. John began a new types of washing, where he did the washing, not the person. That was John's innovation. Christ's disciples followed John's practice. Priests had nothing to do with John's baptism or Christ's disciples' baptisms, as far as I am aware.

Your post seems to me to be a non-sequitur, unless I am missing something here.

pgd
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01 Aug 2010, 8:44 am

one-A-N wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

one-A-N wrote:

The point being missed here: previous washings were self-washings; John's baptism was NOT a self-washing - you got washed by someone else, you were passive instead of active.

Except someone who HAD been washed had to present themselves before a priest, particularly if the person was suffering from a skin disease.

---

So you feel that John the Baptist created a new religious innovation - water baptism - and that technique/practice was accepted by his cousin, Jesus Christ, and that's why Jesus Christ decided to get water baptized in the Jordan River.

In the country of India, there is a long river, the Ganges, which Hindus view as a sacred river and enter it for spiritual improvement.

That's my understanding.

Jordan River (Israel) vs Ganges River (India)

Two different non-profit religions which faithfully believe in the power of river waters.

Two different non-profit religions which also believe each is right/each is the one true religion/whatever.

Exclavius
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01 Aug 2010, 10:09 am

Smart gods to inspire river washing in the Jordan and the Ganges eh?
Even then two of the most polluted rivers of the time.

one-A-N
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01 Aug 2010, 10:31 pm

pgd wrote:

So you feel that John the Baptist created a new religious innovation - water baptism - and that technique/practice was accepted by his cousin, Jesus Christ,

Yes - with the qualifier that John the Baptist may have been inspired by God, rather than making it up on his own.

pgd wrote:

and that's why Jesus Christ decided to get water baptized in the Jordan River.

In the country of India, there is a long river, the Ganges, which Hindus view as a sacred river and enter it for spiritual improvement.

That's my understanding.

Jordan River (Israel) vs Ganges River (India)

Two different non-profit religions which faithfully believe in the power of river waters.

Two different non-profit religions which also believe each is right/each is the one true religion/whatever.

What has that got to do with John the Baptist and Christ? Neither claimed that the Jordan was sacred or that one had to be baptised there (or in any river at all). It was the local river. The Nile and the Tigris and the Euphrates were all a long way away.

Anyway, it is too tedious to answer questions that turn into a maze of non-sequiturs. Bye.

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