I'm tired of the disgruntled so-called men

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Whisper
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09 Aug 2010, 7:06 am

ApsieGuy wrote:
Whisper wrote:
The amount of people who seem to believe that society is inherently equal and that women don't get sh** on for just being women amazes me. You only need look out the window to see sexism in our society. In advertising, in the workplace, on TV, on film, in games, in fashion, in schools, in religion, wherever. Yes, things are gradually getting better. No, we haven't reached equality yet.

Being a ND male is hard because you're disabled. Being a ND female is hard because you're disabled and lack male privilege.



I am going to sound like a jerk, but we will never reach full equality as long as..........

-A women can hit a man, but not the other way around?



As far as I'm aware, the law for Common Assault (in the UK, at least?) applies to both genders.

Quote:
Why this wont happen. Men are just naturally physically stronger than a women. I have never seen any women bench 225(average guy wieght) in my gym ever. I am sure it exist. However, such women are usually on rioids


You've never seen any women lifting heavy weights in your gym? Really? Consider what society tells women their 'perfect' body shape should be:

Image

Now compare that to the men's one.

Image

Muscular women are told that they're ugly and unattractive.

Quote:
-Men are much more logical thinkers than men


Erm, yeah.. I think you shot yourself in the foot there. If what you meant to say was that men are 'much more logical thinkers than women', then I'm going to call you out as bullshitting on that one. You're just going by outdated misogynistic stereotypes.

Quote:
Look at the amount of female engineers in firms


Which of course has nothing to do with societal expectations or employers' prejudices (such as the above)?

Quote:
So, when full equality is reached. Can I go up and hit any women that offends me? Is that cool with you women.

I wouldn't really do this. I just think that if full equality is reached that men should be able to get in fights with women and be charged as if they got in a fight with a guy.


The law will charge anyone who hits anyone else. You seem to live in an odd place indeed where women go around brutalising poor, defenseless men, while the police sit back and laugh about it. If you'd like to actually look at the figures (y'know, that whole logical thing you were going on about) you'll see that the actual amount of male-on-female domestic violence is far higher than the female-on-male equivolent. (Source)



Last edited by Whisper on 09 Aug 2010, 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Celoneth
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09 Aug 2010, 7:09 am

ApsieGuy wrote:
I am going to sound like a jerk, but we will never reach full equality as long as..........

-A women can hit a man, but not the other way around?
Why this wont happen. Men are just naturally physically stronger than a women. I have never seen any women bench 225(average guy wieght) in my gym ever. I am sure it exist. However, such women are usually on rioids

-Men are much more logical thinkers than men
Look at the amount of female engineers in firms

So, when full equality is reached. Can I go up and hit any women that offends me? Is that cool with you women.

I wouldn't really do this. I just think that if full equality is reached that men should be able to get in fights with women and be charged as if they got in a fight with a guy.


Women can and do get arrested for assault. I don't understand the "never hit a woman" rule - it certainly doesn't apply in cases of domestic violence - or is it "never hit a woman that you don't own?"
Also - there's no more sexism or gender stereotypes that girls can't do maths and science right?



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09 Aug 2010, 9:10 am

ApsieGuy wrote:
Whisper wrote:
The amount of people who seem to believe that society is inherently equal and that women don't get sh** on for just being women amazes me. You only need look out the window to see sexism in our society. In advertising, in the workplace, on TV, on film, in games, in fashion, in schools, in religion, wherever. Yes, things are gradually getting better. No, we haven't reached equality yet.

Being a ND male is hard because you're disabled. Being a ND female is hard because you're disabled and lack male privilege.



I am going to sound like a jerk, but we will never reach full equality as long as..........

-A women can hit a man, but not the other way around?
Why this wont happen. Men are just naturally physically stronger than a women. I have never seen any women bench 225(average guy wieght) in my gym ever. I am sure it exist. However, such women are usually on rioids

-Men are much more logical thinkers than men
Look at the amount of female engineers in firms




So, when full equality is reached. Can I go up and hit any women that offends me? Is that cool with you women.

I wouldn't really do this. I just think that if full equality is reached that men should be able to get in fights with women and be charged as if they got in a fight with a guy.


I see both your points. But when it comes to a woman hitting a man I think the reason many descent people I've met accept this is b/c of how women are still viewed by the media (in most places) and by many males as sex objects. Because of this, my guy friends never let me walk back to my dorm alone at night after visiting them (1-2 would walk me back) because of sexual assault/rape cases that had occurred on campus. They ended up having to explain how they don't view women as lower beings and they recognized how the situation isn't fair (I can walk just fine by myself), but because of the way things are its the only way to guarantee my safety (I'm paraphrasing from months ago). The only way I see a guy hitting a girl as becoming acceptable is if men view women as equals at least when it comes to their bodily rights. If that happened than men and women hitting each other should not be tolerated period. Also, women hitting men may be a really strange way to "even out" the discrepancy with the way many men view women. But the way many males view their female counterparts and how women need to defend themselves (hitting and sometimes having body guards) creates a vicious cycle.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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09 Aug 2010, 11:49 am

Whisper wrote:
ApsieGuy wrote:
Whisper wrote:
The amount of people who seem to believe that society is inherently equal and that women don't get sh** on for just being women amazes me. You only need look out the window to see sexism in our society. In advertising, in the workplace, on TV, on film, in games, in fashion, in schools, in religion, wherever. Yes, things are gradually getting better. No, we haven't reached equality yet.

Being a ND male is hard because you're disabled. Being a ND female is hard because you're disabled and lack male privilege.



I am going to sound like a jerk, but we will never reach full equality as long as..........

-A women can hit a man, but not the other way around?



As far as I'm aware, the law for Common Assault (in the UK, at least?) applies to both genders.

Quote:
Why this wont happen. Men are just naturally physically stronger than a women. I have never seen any women bench 225(average guy wieght) in my gym ever. I am sure it exist. However, such women are usually on rioids


You've never seen any women lifting heavy weights in your gym? Really? Consider what society tells women their 'perfect' body shape should be:

Image

Now compare that to the men's one.

Image

Muscular women are told that they're ugly and unattractive.

Quote:
-Men are much more logical thinkers than men


Erm, yeah.. I think you shot yourself in the foot there. If what you meant to say was that men are 'much more logical thinkers than women', then I'm going to call you out as bullshitting on that one. You're just going by outdated misogynistic stereotypes.

Quote:
Look at the amount of female engineers in firms


Which of course has nothing to do with societal expectations or employers' prejudices (such as the above)?

Quote:
So, when full equality is reached. Can I go up and hit any women that offends me? Is that cool with you women.

I wouldn't really do this. I just think that if full equality is reached that men should be able to get in fights with women and be charged as if they got in a fight with a guy.


The law will charge anyone who hits anyone else. You seem to live in an odd place indeed where women go around brutalising poor, defenseless men, while the police sit back and laugh about it. If you'd like to actually look at the figures (y'know, that whole logical thing you were going on about) you'll see that the actual amount of male-on-female domestic violence is far higher than the female-on-male equivolent. (Source)


Women are much more likely to be arrested during a domestic dispute because the men are more often than not the abusers and can stay calm while the abused woman is freaking out. So, the assertion that women can hit a man and get away with it is absurd.


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09 Aug 2010, 4:23 pm

I wonder if this whole supposed "lack of being able to read body language" thing is to do with differences in non-verbal dialect and culture.

I say this because there are people that I've been able to read very well (close friends and family). I've noticed that few of these people don't do the eyebrow kilter. They all say what they mean and socialise in a straightforward way. In contrast there have been other people that I've had difficulty in reading because they do, the eyebrow kilter.

I have been intrigued by this eyebrow kilter because I saw it on TV and in cartoons.
I have found myself surrounded by people who don't do intricate things with their eyebrows. When you're surrounded by people like that at home you tend to see it as normal. It's only when you go out into the big bad world of eyebrow wrigglers that you realise that the confusing things shown on TV (that you blithely dismissed as silly fantasy) can happen in real life.


This is probably why people who don't wriggle their eyebrows so much gravitate towards me and vise versa. We're on similar wavelengths. It's spooky.

Also, a girl on her own is more likely to be singled out and attacked.
It's the safety in numbers principle at work. So in theory, a girl could be reasonable at reading body language, but could still be ostracised by a group of girls, thus leaving her open to attack. I believe that this is why many females congregate into groups: protection from male attack. It's sort of like a mutual protection pact. The female clique as acts as a social filter, so there's the whole social proof vetting process which occurs before any male can join the group.

So if anything's to blame, it's the system of socialisation.
Putting all the blame on the so called "vunerable" Aspie girl misses this point.

I would be absolutely delighted if someone came up to talk to me about the 117th element or whatever. I wouldn't turn them away. At least I'd have someone to talk to who talked sense.

Girls and women are very nice, but sometimes I really don't understand what they're chatting away about. It's not their faults, it's how they are, but it really is sometimes hard for me to get a word in edgeways about things I've seen.

What if some people have different modes and methods of socialising?
What if some of these methods are in the minority?
What if some of these methods were useful in environments different from current socially saturated civilisation?

What if some people, through no fault of their own, are wired up to socialise in ways different from the majority? What if these methods of a few individuals indirectly help the functioning and survival of the larger group?

No matter how my teachers tried to get me to dance along with the group, they couldn't. They had to let me do my own thing over the top of everyone else in the school play.
I begged to do scat improvisation in music and felt very comfortable doing it, when everyone else was petrified. People learned from me going my own way and often asked me for help. They were grateful for this help.

As for the idea that AS girls can't read any body language at all and are utterly clueless/helpless/vunerable in social situations, I don't buy it. Bar the wriggly eyebrows, I can decode basic facial expressions smiles, frowns and so on.

I'm not saying that there aren't difficulties, but judging on my own and other's experiences, a lot of how well you do in a social situation depends on who you associate with. I think it's possible for one to be at risk in one social/cultural environment, but be protected in another.



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09 Aug 2010, 7:44 pm

Mutate wrote:
I found it unfair as I don't think AS men choose to be immature and annoying, I think their immaturity is thrust on them against their will by not being social enough to get friends and relationships. And I think if we are being fair, there are some immature aspie females out there too and it is not their fault either. Those clever mods had lots of relationships and a full social life, even if the relationships were bad due to their AS problems, they got to grow and become mature and wise through them. The crap aspies never have a chance to grow and become more mature by meeting more people and having friendships and relationships. There should be more sympathy either way from both groups, but that takes maturity and the ability to see life and different problems from someone else' point of view, which unfortunatly are both hard for aspies.


This is so right on!

I think one thing that can be said is that it's (as a quite good rule of thumb) much easier for women to get a clue about where they stand in the world, and what is holding them back. This is both good and bad. Good because they don't feel as lost, but bad because they are reminded of, and feel constrained by, the harshness of reality more. For us guys, figuring out what's wrong with our approach to life sometimes feels like trying to comfort a baby. You're never told where the root of the problem is, and the world will just ignore/reject you until you have stumbled upon the problem yourself and fixed it. Whereas with women, I'd think you are more likely to be constantly reminded exactly what your faults are.

I also think that some people have much more of an inherent capacity to mature than others, some are more wired to only be satisfied by a childlike kind of happiness, whereas others find things like stable relationships and working with others in a job to be as satisfying.

Mutate wrote:
I myself am more mature than when I used to complain about that and have got to know aspies who have had relationships but are still a bit immature and crap, aspies who are celibate but are mature and wise and taken seriously by people, aspies including females who are shy like me and had the same problems as me. However for reasons above i dont think either side should put down or be jealous of the other. I had a relationship a few years ago when i was really depressed and worried about life and it did not help cure me as I thought it might. If anything it made it worse to handle a relationship when i was in a state of feeling bad about life.


I'd think you could have a relationship where you don't spend enough of your life together that it would drain you, but yet enough that you don't feel like a total loser in that area, and can get over your depression.



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09 Aug 2010, 8:10 pm

ApsieGuy wrote:
Whisper wrote:
The amount of people who seem to believe that society is inherently equal and that women don't get sh** on for just being women amazes me. You only need look out the window to see sexism in our society. In advertising, in the workplace, on TV, on film, in games, in fashion, in schools, in religion, wherever. Yes, things are gradually getting better. No, we haven't reached equality yet.

Being a ND male is hard because you're disabled. Being a ND female is hard because you're disabled and lack male privilege.


I am going to sound like a jerk, but we will never reach full equality as long as..........

-A women can hit a man, but not the other way around?



:pale:

wow.

* * * * *

biostructure wrote:
For us guys, figuring out what's wrong with our approach to life sometimes feels like trying to comfort a baby. You're never told where the root of the problem is, and the world will just ignore/reject you until you have stumbled upon the problem yourself and fixed it. Whereas with women, I'd think you are more likely to be constantly reminded exactly what your faults are.


i feel very much like you say men do. throughout my life my social failures have left me quite lost. if reminded of any "faults" it's being single, which has little to do with anything, in the end.

(or rather, it's not a cause - or fault - but an effect)


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09 Aug 2010, 9:13 pm

katzefrau wrote:
biostructure wrote:
For us guys, figuring out what's wrong with our approach to life sometimes feels like trying to comfort a baby. You're never told where the root of the problem is, and the world will just ignore/reject you until you have stumbled upon the problem yourself and fixed it. Whereas with women, I'd think you are more likely to be constantly reminded exactly what your faults are.


i feel very much like you say men do. throughout my life my social failures have left me quite lost. if reminded of any "faults" it's being single, which has little to do with anything, in the end.

(or rather, it's not a cause - or fault - but an effect)


I mean things like being obsessed with stuff, not knowing how to give and/or receive affection, not being able to read body language, being inexperienced in relationships, etc.

Someone said how women who cannot read body language sometimes can't tell if men are dangerous, women who are bad at giving affection are seen as "b****y", etc. I think it's easy for us men who were exceptionally good at something (anything) as kids to feel like we know it all, and forget exactly how much we're clueless about. Women seem to have less of the "ignorance", but also less of the "bliss", to re-word a common expression.



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09 Aug 2010, 10:00 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Women are much more likely to be arrested during a domestic dispute because the men are more often than not the abusers and can stay calm while the abused woman is freaking out. So, the assertion that women can hit a man and get away with it is absurd.


attorney-general-California(1998) wrote:
The percentage of males arrested for domestic violence decreased from 94.0 percent
of the total in 1988 to 83.5 percent of the total in 1998.

report link here

I could not find a newer report that directly states the gender division, but women just do not get arrested more than men in domestic abuse cases.

I knew a guy who was chronically abused by his wife who worked as a corrections officer. The women had prior abuse complaints from 3 boyfriends and one restraining order. He had a clean record, other than fights with her. After a particularly bad fight in which she had a black eye and he got slashed with a kitchen knife then knocked unconscious, he finally called the cops.

I'm not going to argue their abuse was not somewhat mutual, I'm just saying that he is sitting in jail, and she was never charged. The legal bias favouring women in domestic dispute cases and family/devoice court is significant.

Abuse against women is a terrible thing, sexism is too, but don't think that you get to hog either all to yourselves. (Yes I know both are worse and more common for women)



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09 Aug 2010, 10:05 pm

Domestic abuse happens to be a special interest of mine, and it's a well documented phenomenon that abusers often paint their victims as the abuser. Our legal system doesn't always see through it, either.

And... I didn't say women were arrested for domestic violence more often than men. I said they are more likely TO BE arrested. There is a difference.


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09 Aug 2010, 10:53 pm

biostructure wrote:
katzefrau wrote:
biostructure wrote:
For us guys, figuring out what's wrong with our approach to life sometimes feels like trying to comfort a baby. You're never told where the root of the problem is, and the world will just ignore/reject you until you have stumbled upon the problem yourself and fixed it. Whereas with women, I'd think you are more likely to be constantly reminded exactly what your faults are.


i feel very much like you say men do. throughout my life my social failures have left me quite lost. if reminded of any "faults" it's being single, which has little to do with anything, in the end.

(or rather, it's not a cause - or fault - but an effect)


I mean things like being obsessed with stuff, not knowing how to give and/or receive affection, not being able to read body language, being inexperienced in relationships, etc.

Someone said how women who cannot read body language sometimes can't tell if men are dangerous, women who are bad at giving affection are seen as "b****y", etc. I think it's easy for us men who were exceptionally good at something (anything) as kids to feel like we know it all, and forget exactly how much we're clueless about. Women seem to have less of the "ignorance", but also less of the "bliss", to re-word a common expression.


could be, and well put. i do find i'm well aware of my failings (not due to "instruction" from others but from observance and endless analysis of my own confusion) and consciously hide them, so they may be a lot less obvious to others. i also have a curious trait of openly discussing my lack of understanding of other people's behavior and what's expected of me. and also curiously, experience with relationships has actually left me more confused and anxious rather than less so. but in any case the tendency toward discussion could be related to gender in that women are more inclined (or trained?) to talk about interpersonal relationships, and i am no exception to that but talking does not equal understanding.

i think it is precisely because i am female that i have understood clearly that i have problems identifying how to behave appropriately with other people because as a woman, if your people skills are conspicuously bad the feeling of failure is enormous, as so much more is expected of you in this arena.

not meant to be a "women have it worse" statement. just an example of how a deficit we are probably all very familiar with has in particular affected me. superficially i sometimes do ok. it is when i try to deepen or maintain things that the big problems arise. and a man might, for example, have it the other way around. he might have problems initiating things, yet be ok in a relationship with an NT woman (if he can get into one) who takes control of the relationship maintenance. there could be endless variations, but i think this issue of relationship maintenance is big. misreading social cues is such a small part of things. you can be trained to perform well on a first date or in a job interview, but what happens when you get the job and have to socialize with your co-workers every day for infinity? what happens once you get in a relationship but don't know how to be in a relationship? your deficits will arise over time if they are not conspicuous to start with, and if you have passed for NT those deficits will come as a surprise to your partner, co-workers, and whoever else, and might be perceived as character deficits when you are trying as hard as you can to figure out what they all want from you.

really, i doubt either men or women have things easier, and in a sense those of us who are more competent socially may not have it easier either, necessarily. we all have our own stories and probably varying areas of difficulty, as well as different strategies for coping; and those strategies will have their strong points and their weak points.

huntedman wrote:
The legal bias favouring women in domestic dispute cases and family/devoice court is significant.


i'm sure this is true, although sadly it is probably because most (physical) abusers are male. that doesn't make the bias ok, it just explains it.


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11 Aug 2010, 2:21 pm

Is it wrong for me to feel physically sick whenever I pass a magazine rack?

The images of emaciated women that I see on the covers are physically disturbing.
They are not beautiful.
They look like painted dolls plastered in make-up undergoing self torture.

This is one of the reasons why I hate shopping.
Not only are the aisles crowded, but my brain is bombarded by society's subliminals.
It's horrible.
It makes me feel stressed, depressed and angry when I'm trying to shop.



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22 Aug 2010, 2:58 am

OneStepBeyond wrote:
its usually the men who only view women on a superficial level- they believe that all women have to do is look pretty because thats the main thing they judge a woman upon themselves. and also probably because theyve become overly focused on sex(or the lack of it) and therefore take the general consensus that women can get laid easier to mean that life as a whole is easier for women.
i



THIS. :D


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22 Aug 2010, 3:19 am

OneStepBeyond wrote:
its usually the men who only view women on a superficial level- they believe that all women have to do is look pretty because thats the main thing they judge a woman upon themselves.


You. Are. My. Hero.

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Because that is Exactly what it is my friend. :heart: :heart:



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22 Aug 2010, 6:52 am

Bethie wrote:
OneStepBeyond wrote:
its usually the men who only view women on a superficial level- they believe that all women have to do is look pretty because thats the main thing they judge a woman upon themselves. and also probably because theyve become overly focused on sex(or the lack of it) and therefore take the general consensus that women can get laid easier to mean that life as a whole is easier for women.
i



THIS. :D


yes.

not all men objectify women to this degree, i realize. but the overfocus on sex is pretty standard.


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22 Aug 2010, 7:26 am

I have my own perfect body. I don't need to look like a painted doll.


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