If God exist, why does he reward those that bullied us?

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wreck1
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04 Nov 2013, 1:50 pm

I am Muslim.

There is mercy and there is justice.
Justice always comes before mercy. This is not followed in life always as in school.
God does not exist ... like magic.
In my mind God is like the natural laws of life.
The bully happens to be in an advantageous position and abuses his power. Like he has a stronger body.
But if the bully has good friends and he is adult, then he will find his place and living good is the best way to live ife.
The way all things follow.

And life is a test.
And it says in the Quran that life and death is a test for us.
Consider that every part in life where you move up or down in the system you must pass through a test.
I think the bulllies are a test too, only that the system fails to make a system out of it and allow chaos to go on.
God has not failed, humans has failed to make use of the laws he has ascribed us.



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04 Nov 2013, 2:13 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234[/youtube]


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04 Nov 2013, 5:21 pm

KXMode explained it, but maybe too long winded for anyone to read.

If you are talking about a Biblical God, then the rest of the Bible explains he is not running the world, if he was, we wouldnt have to pray for "Gods Kingdom to Come" and "let thy will be done on Earth as in Heaven", not if it was already here.

The Bible says we left God and chose the Devils way, so he is the god of the World at the moment, thats why the wicked do so well, they have god on their side as opposed to Almighty God.

In the book of Daniel, I think it was the Archangel Gabriel that explained why it took him two weeks to reach Daniel, because his way was blocked by a Demon Entity, the Prince of Persia.

At the end, there will be a war between Jesus and his angels, and Satan and his Angels, when Jesus wins it, then the Good will be favoured above the wicked.

First in Heaven:- Revelation 12 v7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Then on Earth Revelation 19 link

Wars are fought for a reason, usually conquest, this war will be for control of the Earth as God doesnt not at this point control it.

Blame the evil and the suffering of dead babies on god, not God.



91
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04 Nov 2013, 6:32 pm

MCalavera wrote:
91 wrote:
The logical problem of evil has been dead for decades.


According to whom?

If evil exists, then this is not the perfect world. And therefore God could've done better.


There is consensus among modern philosophers. Even infidels.org acknowledges this. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... gical.html


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04 Nov 2013, 10:17 pm

91 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
91 wrote:
The logical problem of evil has been dead for decades.


According to whom?

If evil exists, then this is not the perfect world. And therefore God could've done better.


There is consensus among modern philosophers. Even infidels.org acknowledges this. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... gical.html


Infidels.org also like to say that Jesus never existed. I don't understand why you had to mention them as the last thing I want to do is associate myself with them.

And I don't think there is a clear consensus among modern philosophers on this topic unless you're only talking about Christian philosophers.



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04 Nov 2013, 10:53 pm

The guy who bullied me through grade school died a tragic death 10 years ago. God is looking out for me. I wonder why he doesn't do the same for his believers?



91
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05 Nov 2013, 3:00 am

MCalavera wrote:
Infidels.org also like to say that Jesus never existed. I don't understand why you had to mention them as the last thing I want to do is associate myself with them.


It means that there is not even a conspiracy theory worth of potential for the problem to really get going again. Most philosophers just accept the burden of proof on the argument is just too high to justify the certainty requirement of the argument.

MCalavera wrote:
And I don't think there is a clear consensus among modern philosophers on this topic unless you're only talking about Christian philosophers.


Its about as dead as a movement gets in philosophy. Feel free to make an argument, get it published and try for tenure if you think that the argument still has some life in it. If you feel that the consensus is only true among Christian philosophers feel free to post a poll that shows different.


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05 Nov 2013, 5:15 am

This may not be the greatest news for you, but I don't look to philosophy as a discipline that warrants someone like me to look to experts for the right answers or consensus.

In philosophy, all one basically needs is the ability to think and use logic properly. Studying academic philosophy is good if you want to know all the technical terms and the history and such, but I don't need a consensus to see whether or not the logical argument of evil is a valid argument against God.



91
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05 Nov 2013, 6:26 am

MCalavera wrote:
This may not be the greatest news for you, but I don't look to philosophy as a discipline that warrants someone like me to look to experts for the right answers or consensus.

In philosophy, all one basically needs is the ability to think and use logic properly. Studying academic philosophy is good if you want to know all the technical terms and the history and such, but I don't need a consensus to see whether or not the logical argument of evil is a valid argument against God.


Dismissing the value of entire fields, reducing expertise to scuttlebutt... I'm the believer, aren't those supposed to be my lines...


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JacobV
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05 Nov 2013, 7:12 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
1. This is a massive act of necromancery.
JacobV wrote:
If Christianity is a tool to control the masses, it's a very crappy one. Look at China... look at India... they managed to out-control and out-populate us without Christianity. China has a single political party and most of the Chinese are nor Christian.
a) I totally want to be that guy but this is racist.
b) India has theism too.
c) What makes you so sure the control in the US is not as strong as that in China and India? Maybe having two parties instead of just one is not that big of a difference if the two parties have a 99% tendency to do exactly the same. Sure, republicans tend to be far more anti-poor than democrats, but the two parties tend to get away with the same pro-corporation, pro-war stuff.

d) Just because the guys at China are controlling other people better than the guys at US, it doesn't debunk the statement that Christianity is a tool to control people.

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I've heard every pro and con argument out there. It comes down to this: Do you think you are smarter than God or not?
Naw, thread is more about, if god exists why does it not punish what I find evil?

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Do you think you are more righteous than God or not? What makes you think that life on earth is any better than life after death?

Before we argue whether this life is better than something else, first prove that something else exists. There is no point otherwise. Hey, this hamburger tastes great, but I bet a Unicorn sandwich would be far more delicious.


Quote:
If you believe you're smarter than whoever/whatever created this universe than there's no point in discussing this.

Why?


Quote:
If you believe God is smarter and more righteous than you personally, you'll accept that he has a better place for us... that this life on earth is just a small tiny part of a very large life he has for us.
But why should we believe any of this?

Quote:
teething hurts... birthing hurts... those are very painful things in life. We don't curse god for those things because we see the results.

birthing hurts and it is evil when forced, where are the big results of forced birth? (due to rape and completely unfair misogynistic anti-abortion legislation).

Quote:
If you don't understand why god does things

I have no problem understanding why god does things. I have a problem believing it exists. And the reason the world has plenty of social issues that don't make any sense are a reason to doubt it.

Quote:
(nobody does, people only claim to know) then how can you possibly judge it?

I don't need to judge it, all I am doing is questioning its whole existence.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong... i'm an aspie and I curse god every day for this miserable nonsense of a half-life he gave me.. I hope one day he proves me wrong.


The whole "god works in mysterious ways" argument reeks in privilege. Privileged people can bet that whatever hardship they are going through right now will somehow work out in the end. The unprivileged really cannot.


I see holes in all your arguments too... with hints of misandry and false premise. I won't dissect them as you so artfully dissected mine, just comment on the last one: Most of the world's religious people are poor with little to no priviledge. Religion appeals to the poor more than it does to the rich imho.



Last edited by JacobV on 05 Nov 2013, 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

tern
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05 Nov 2013, 7:17 am

It's only an argument against an omnipotent God. Have you used logic properly to ask whether all the attributes assumed for this God entity by mainstream religion actually are innate to the concept or not? The existence of God would be a fact of physics like any other, why then shouldn't God be subject to physical reality and its logical limitations just like the rest of us? In what actions are possible, in what forces are available to exert to do anything. Not omnipotent. Omnipotence is magic. That there is no evidence for magic, stand alongside the 2 strands of evidence for a universal spirit: the intelligent unlikely fits of the physical constants that make the world possible, and when folks seeking help get their own actions guided successfully in ways they did not have within themselves..

A-omni-theism has a long history, going back to the ancient gnostics, because it is more common sense than omnitheism. There is no problem of evil in aomnitheism.



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05 Nov 2013, 10:42 am

91 wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
This may not be the greatest news for you, but I don't look to philosophy as a discipline that warrants someone like me to look to experts for the right answers or consensus.

In philosophy, all one basically needs is the ability to think and use logic properly. Studying academic philosophy is good if you want to know all the technical terms and the history and such, but I don't need a consensus to see whether or not the logical argument of evil is a valid argument against God.


Dismissing the value of entire fields, reducing expertise to scuttlebutt... I'm the believer, aren't those supposed to be my lines...


What I am saying is I don't need any philosophy expert to tell me what is and is not considered a valid argument, especially when it comes to matters of God's nature and existence. I am a good enough philosopher as I am without the need to do academics in philosophy.

I am also assuming you are correct when you say the consensus speaks against the logical argument of evil. For all I know, you could be twisting the facts a little.



MCalavera
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05 Nov 2013, 10:44 am

tern wrote:
It's only an argument against an omnipotent God. Have you used logic properly to ask whether all the attributes assumed for this God entity by mainstream religion actually are innate to the concept or not? The existence of God would be a fact of physics like any other, why then shouldn't God be subject to physical reality and its logical limitations just like the rest of us? In what actions are possible, in what forces are available to exert to do anything. Not omnipotent. Omnipotence is magic. That there is no evidence for magic, stand alongside the 2 strands of evidence for a universal spirit: the intelligent unlikely fits of the physical constants that make the world possible, and when folks seeking help get their own actions guided successfully in ways they did not have within themselves..

A-omni-theism has a long history, going back to the ancient gnostics, because it is more common sense than omnitheism. There is no problem of evil in aomnitheism.


The problem of evil is not necessarily an argument against an omnipotent God.

The problem of evil is an argument against a God that is BOTH omnipotent and perfectly good.



MCalavera
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05 Nov 2013, 10:50 am

91 wrote:
The logical problem of evil has been dead for decades.


Ok, and what about the evidential problem of evil?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-evi/

Logical or evidential, they're both very good arguments that speak against God.



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05 Nov 2013, 10:56 am

I generally don't think the mainstream exoteric Christian doctrine (NT filtered through OT) does very well at explaining this - ie. the world should have improved in ratio to the size of the church if each believer were strengthening the manifestation of Christ. Most people would have a lot of sarcastic commentary on that, I'd be a bit more lenient and say that the pursuit of spirituality is a good thing but nominal belief or focusing more on doing it in order to not be punished - that's where organized religion poisons itself.

Then again if you ever read up on Hermetic Qabalah, something where evil is treated more as an epiphenomena of ignorance or at worst creating free-floating entities alikened to demons but mainly parts of peoples denser energy breaking away and forming their own autonomy - you're looking at the reality that this is still somewhat of a savage world, not nearly as much as it once was but still is somewhat, and that we have a God whose determined to have us evolve and solve our own problems. Divine intervention would just be enough generally speaking to keep us from blowing up the classroom (ie. Earth) in the case where the negligence of a few doesn't match that of the many.

The good news about that philosophy - if you feel a bit precocious in that regard or feel like you have more transcendental than wordly desires, such as to bring down heaven as much as possible, go with it! Just make sure that you do think through your initiatives in life clearly because miseducated good intentions are just as much of a slag on the world as base or evil intentions.



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05 Nov 2013, 11:35 am

No one knows.