Isn't it 100% selfish of my parents to expect me to keep....

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Who_Am_I
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18 Sep 2010, 8:55 pm

Spazzergasm wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
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But as a human it's your responsibility to work through your problems, suffer, and learn.


Why? Who wrote this Book of Human Responsibilities? What authority do they have to tell everyone what to do with their lives?


It's my opinion. If you don't like it, feel free to disagree. But it's good writing skills to say things with confidence.


Ah. I was confused by the fact that you stated it as though it were an absolute truth.


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Spazzergasm
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18 Sep 2010, 9:04 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
Spazzergasm wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
Quote:
But as a human it's your responsibility to work through your problems, suffer, and learn.


Why? Who wrote this Book of Human Responsibilities? What authority do they have to tell everyone what to do with their lives?


It's my opinion. If you don't like it, feel free to disagree. But it's good writing skills to say things with confidence.


Ah. I was confused by the fact that you stated it as though it were an absolute truth.


:P It's 95% true to me.



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18 Sep 2010, 9:29 pm

I believe your life is yours to do with as you as you wish. I think in many cases, depression and suicide are very rational, maybe even hyper-rational. But often along with the depression can come a loss of perspective. It doesn't sound like you really want to die, just that you don't know what to do if you run out of options.

You should ask yourself, and really think about what you want. I don't believe it's as simple as just a career. It may be money, pursuing your interests, or a dozen other things. Explore all your options thoroughly, because you deserve it. Anyone introspective enough to think of killing themselves deserves it.

Oh, and as for your parents, they're not being selfish, it's just love. They want to avoid pain just as much as you do.



mechanicalgirl39
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19 Sep 2010, 5:14 am

Spazzergasm wrote:
I don't doubt his problems. I've been very depressed. And still get depressed. I know what utter depression feels like, in all it's inglory.

But as a human it's your responsibility to work through your problems, suffer, and learn.

Killing yourself causes depression for more than one person. And the death of a family member isn't a kind of depression that goes away. I know people who are still depressed by a death that happened years ago in their family.

Use your brain. Which is better? Having one person depressed or more than one? It doesn't matter if YOU are feeling it. One is better than multiple.


Depression is not the same as normal emotional pain from losing someone. You grieve then you accept that it happened and leave it behind.

Would you blame someone in extreme physical pain for taking some morphine? That's the same reaction as suicide. It's the desperate and irrational response of someone under extreme suffering. It's not a carefully considered cop out of someone who doesn't really feel like dealing with life. Just because YOU managed to resist it doesn't mean he's a coward and should just man up. It means you were lucky.


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mechanicalgirl39
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19 Sep 2010, 7:58 am

Spazzergasm wrote:
I don't doubt his problems. I've been very depressed. And still get depressed. I know what utter depression feels like, in all it's inglory.

But as a human it's your responsibility to work through your problems, suffer, and learn.

Killing yourself causes depression for more than one person. And the death of a family member isn't a kind of depression that goes away. I know people who are still depressed by a death that happened years ago in their family.

Use your brain. Which is better? Having one person depressed or more than one? It doesn't matter if YOU are feeling it. One is better than multiple.


Also:

That logic doesn't really hold because it is still selfish.

If I as an individual expected someone to keep fighting depression just to save my feelings, that would be selfish. It doesn't matter if there are other individuals taking that view, it's the same selfishness.

Again...I'm not advocating suicide. I'm advocating helping people who are suicidal because they're human beings and deserve help - not condemning them as selfish because you'd rather they stuck around and continued suffering just to save your feelings.


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19 Sep 2010, 8:06 am

Its a selfish act alright, but I've been there many times. When you get so low its very hard to come up.
I do understand. I think some suicides are more selfish than others, depending on the situation.



Spazzergasm
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19 Sep 2010, 8:29 am

1. Taking morphine isn't the same as killing yourself


2. It's not selfish. I'm not talking from the family member's point of view. It's selfish from HIS point of view. Even if the family members have some selfish motives, it's ultimately his and his only selfish decision to kill himself.



mechanicalgirl39
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19 Sep 2010, 8:42 am

Spazzergasm wrote:
1. Taking morphine isn't the same as killing yourself


2. It's not selfish. I'm not talking from the family member's point of view. It's selfish from HIS point of view. Even if the family members have some selfish motives, it's ultimately his and his only selfish decision to kill himself.


No you don't get it. I was just pointing out that someone who is suicidal is just desperately trying to escape pain.

So why is it worse selfishness to escape pain than to demand that someone else continue suffering so you don't have to feel grief at losing them?


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19 Sep 2010, 10:06 am

I hope you find something that makes you happy.


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mechanicalgirl39
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19 Sep 2010, 10:27 am

Me too.

Good luck and best wishes.


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19 Sep 2010, 11:50 am

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Spazzergasm wrote:
1. Taking morphine isn't the same as killing yourself


2. It's not selfish. I'm not talking from the family member's point of view. It's selfish from HIS point of view. Even if the family members have some selfish motives, it's ultimately his and his only selfish decision to kill himself.


No you don't get it. I was just pointing out that someone who is suicidal is just desperately trying to escape pain.

So why is it worse selfishness to escape pain than to demand that someone else continue suffering so you don't have to feel grief at losing them?


But death is NOT an appropriate solution.

You're missing my point. I'M not the one feeling grief. If I'M the one feeling the grief, my wanting him to stay alive could be selfish on a level. But I'm not.
I'm saying it's not selfish for HIM to choose to live for the sake of the people who love him, but IS selfish for him to kill himself and cause others grief.



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19 Sep 2010, 12:06 pm

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
I can't really bring myself to call someone selfish for taking their life out of sheer desperation.

It's not like people do it casually out of mild annoyance, you know.


Me neither. I do think it's vital to explore every possible alternative before taking a step that's that final, though.


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19 Sep 2010, 12:08 pm

But isn't that beside the point? If you're suicidal enough, you stop remembering other peoples' reactions, and "it's selfish" just isn't enough of a bar anymore. Especially if, unlike NTs, you don't form strongly emotional relationships with others. (I don't know about others, but my relationships tend to be mostly intellectual.) Yes, of course it's selfish; look at the ethics of it, and it's plain.

But a person can't constantly do what he does because other people want him to do it. Drifting along, bending to other people's wishes all the time, no goals and plans of your own--that's a recipe for feeling useless, powerless, and eventually just plain worthless. You have to have your own goals. You have to have something useful to do, something to work toward. If you don't, then you will start feeling suicidal.


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mechanicalgirl39
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19 Sep 2010, 12:18 pm

Spazzergasm wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Spazzergasm wrote:
1. Taking morphine isn't the same as killing yourself


2. It's not selfish. I'm not talking from the family member's point of view. It's selfish from HIS point of view. Even if the family members have some selfish motives, it's ultimately his and his only selfish decision to kill himself.


No you don't get it. I was just pointing out that someone who is suicidal is just desperately trying to escape pain.

So why is it worse selfishness to escape pain than to demand that someone else continue suffering so you don't have to feel grief at losing them?


But death is NOT an appropriate solution.

You're missing my point. I'M not the one feeling grief. If I'M the one feeling the grief, my wanting him to stay alive could be selfish on a level. But I'm not.
I'm saying it's not selfish for HIM to choose to live for the sake of the people who love him, but IS selfish for him to kill himself and cause others grief.


No it isn't but someone feeling that bad isn't going to be rationally weighing up options. They'll do whatever makes the suffering go away.

Yes technically it's selfish in that his decision is about himself. Morally selfish..no. I cannot put that judgement on someone who commits suicide out of sheer desperation and suffering.


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19 Sep 2010, 1:32 pm

Your parents don't want you to kill yourself because they love you and can't imagine the pain of their child dying.

Keep in mind that some people are suicidal because no one loves them or gives a crap they exist.

That is all.


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19 Sep 2010, 1:43 pm

It seems to me that all choices are selfish. Even the most seemingly selfless actions are done for the purpose of making oneself feel better in some way, and I don't think the decision to commit suicide is inherently more selfish than other decisions.

It's possible to commit suicide for the explicit purpose of hurting others, but it doesn't seem that such a decision would be a common one. It seems that suicide happens more frequently when a person is dealing with a very significant amount of emotional stress and so doesn't perceive any way to end their stress except for ending their relationship with the stressful situations.

It's extremely difficult to take into account others' possible responses when considering suicide and it seems incredibly narcissistic of people to expect that suicidal people should consider others' feelings above said suidical people's respective desires to end what they think will be infinite suffering.

Calling suicidal people selfish and trying to make them feel guilty/worse doesn't seem like a reliable way to convince them not to kill themselves. Giving them some hope about an end to suffering and a more enjoyable life seems like it would be more effective.