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Hanotaux
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30 Sep 2010, 1:43 am

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Hanotaux No one likes to see a jackass kick a dog i suggest you ignore her before someone reports you for harassment she is naive ridiculous and idealist but thats a reason to ignore her not to keep responding to her.


I was purposely trying to ignore him/her, but QD kept demanding to know why I wasn't responding to him/her



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30 Sep 2010, 1:54 am

I suggest Quiet Dove get more practice debating less controversial topics before wading into hot button issues.


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30 Sep 2010, 4:48 am

Hanotaux wrote:
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And why are you so willing to discount everything that black people have ever done?


I don't discount their acheivements, but their accomplishments get way over-magnified for the sake of the diversity agenda that implies Black supremacy.


You can't have it both ways Hanotaux. You complain that people are not progressing but you don't want to do anything to help that.
You still have people so horribly brainwashed by the legacy of slavery that they don't believe that they are worth anything or can achieve anything.

If you want people to achieve and improve their position you first need them to believe that they can.
Your rants just reinforce the same old slave master line. It is intentionally designed to keep people in their place and prevent them from aspiring to a better life and encroaching on the more fertile areas reserved for respectable white folks.

Do you really believe that every white person is better than every black person?
Or is giving that impression just part of your propaganda?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyI77Yh1Gg[/youtube]


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30 Sep 2010, 4:57 am

It seems as though a lot of help is need for the poor.

But then, who really wants more competition?

Keep the poor poor so they don't start moving into 'our' neighbourhoods, competing for places in 'our' schools e.t.c.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7784269.stm

Take your pick


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30 Sep 2010, 8:03 am

ikorack wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ohhhh, okay... so illegal aliens technically are NOT allowed to receive welfare, then. you were saying the opposite before. if the welfare is for the children, the children must have been american-born.... would that mean the children are american, or not?

the original argument had been that illegal immigrants are abusing welfare, but that is not technically possible, based on the information you provided.

-----
someone a few pages back also tried to argue that health care costs in the united states are higher because of illegal immigrants, but that has not been borne out by the research. i found an interesting bit of information about health care costs among illegal immigrant populations:

Quote:
While rates of uninsurance are higher among immigrants as a group (authorized and unauthorized) than in the native-
born population, the number of native-born uninsured is larger than the number of uninsured immigrants. Further,
because immigrant usage of heath care services is significantly lower than that of native-born people, it becomes even
harder to make the case that immigrants drive these costs. Certainly, uncompensated care costs are a serious problem
for the health care system in the United States, particularly in areas with large numbers of uninsured patients.
But, while
illegal immigration is a problem with many other dimensions, its links to uncompensated health care costs are far from
straightforward.


edited for clarity and with additional information


Welfare fraud(stealing a SSN, reporting a child you do not take care of, not reporting a spouse, not reporting income you receive as an undocumented worker) in addition we are not allowed to turn away illegal immigrants from emergency health-care(or anyone else for that matter) the hospitals are usually not compensate for their troubles and it drives up every bodies cost. This is really becoming more of a problem as prices keep being driven up by lawsuits and people claiming emergency health-care without paying. Yes the children are American but their parents are not I'm of the mind that if a family has an American child and the parents are illegal immigrants the child should become a ward of its state.(i realize this is a bit radical but if we just took away the (stolen)benefits and cracked down on welfare fraud would disappear but the need of the child might not.) Also i feel the need to point out that many groups abuse the welfare system and that as a whole it is corrupt this is not really by design but in the fact that they are not investigating the people on government assistance as they should. I put certain parts of your quote that i feel you should looked over again in bold, also a link to the source of your quote would be appreciated. Also the quote is likely talking about legal immigrants and not illegal immigrants but i can't check that because you failed to include a link to its source.

@Hanotaux No one likes to see a jackass kick a dog i suggest you ignore her before someone reports you for harassment she is naive ridiculous and idealist but thats a reason to ignore her not to keep responding to her.

EDIT: and Hanotaux your in no position to suggest they show some civility to white Christians you show the same disrespect to minorities as they do to Christianity.
i don't understand why i would be looking back over the bolded parts, as they support my argument. perhaps you should reread it so that it becomes clearer to you?

how could the quote be talking about legal immigrants if it says illegal immigrants right in the text? are you implying that i misquoted something, just because you don't agree with it? that's silly!! !

http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immigrat ... _costs.pdf


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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Sep 2010, 8:31 am

John_Browning wrote:
greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
PP is PPR truncated. PPR has directives though? Are they as crappy and contrived as the Prime Directive in the series of Star Trek or more so as the Three Laws Of Robotics?

I can see why you don't like Star Trek's Prime Directive, but when concentrating in the fictional universe, it makes sense.

hmmm, three Laws of Robotics, a thing that comes to mind is the slavery of artificial sentient beings.

Exactly WTF does Star Trek and Isaac Asimov have to do with illegal immigration? You are going off on a tangent about the wrong kind of alien invaders,


Klingons have a right to social welfare too!



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30 Sep 2010, 9:30 am

My apologies i missed the part in parenthesis after one of the statements in your quote. But you quoted roughly half of this study's summary which i think is suspect next time immediately include links with your quotes.

The parts in bold acknowledge a link between uninsured patiences and uncompensated health care, in addition the statistics while not completely supporting my claims do acknowledge that unauthorized immigrants contribute to the problem of uncompensated health care. In fact the file you linked acknowledges a wide gap in rate of uninsured individuals when you compare citizens and legal immigrants.( that is 59% of illegal immigrants(adults) are uninsured in comparison to 25% of legal immigrants and 14% for native born citizens.) this gap is apparent in all the other groups mentioned albeit at different levels.

The study acknowledge that illegal immigration does drive the cost of uncompensated up they just state that it is unclear how much. they also say that native born citizens contribute to uncompensated health care and they are likely correct in this matter however native born citizens have a right to be here(and should face our legal system) wheres illegal immigrants do not(and should be deported because they lack the legal right to be here) and they can no longer contribute to the problems of our health care system if they are in their own countries and not ours. Controlling the border and illegal immigration would affect uncompensated health care costs in a positive manner. The study you linked acknowledges this, will you? Also i find it odd that this study can divide the rates of insurance by authorized and unauthorized but not the percentile distribution of health care costs.(if someone could tell me why it would be appreciated)

The summary in its entirety wrote:
It is difficult to make the case that unauthorized immigrants, as a group, drive uncompensated care costs. Certainly
the impacts are not uniform. The hospitals in communities with large numbers of uninsured, unauthorized immigrants as
patients bear a disproportionate burden as a result of illegal immigration.
While rates of uninsurance are higher among immigrants as a group (authorized and unauthorized) than in the native-
born population, the number of native-born uninsured is larger than the number of uninsured immigrants. Further,
because immigrant usage of heath care services is significantly lower than that of native-born people, it becomes even
harder to make the case that immigrants drive these costs. Certainly, uncompensated care costs are a serious problem
for the health care system in the United States, particularly in areas with large numbers of uninsured patients. But, while
illegal immigration is a problem with many other dimensions, its links to uncompensated health care costs are far from
straightforward.



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30 Sep 2010, 9:35 am

ikorack wrote:
My apologies i missed the part in parenthesis after one of the statements in your quote. But you quoted roughly half of this study's summary which i think is suspect next time immediately include links with your quotes.

The parts in bold acknowledge a link between uninsured patiences and uncompensated health care, in addition the statistics while not completely supporting my claims do acknowledge that unauthorized immigrants contribute to the problem of uncompensated health care. In fact the file you linked acknowledges a wide gap in rate of uninsured individuals when you compare citizens and legal immigrants.( that is 59% of illegal immigrants(adults) are uninsured in comparison to 25% of legal immigrants and 14% for native born citizens.) this gap is apparent in all the other groups mentioned albeit at different levels.

The study acknowledge that illegal immigration does drive the cost of uncompensated up they just state that it is unclear how much. they also say that native born citizens contribute to uncompensated health care and they are likely correct in this matter however native born citizens have a right to be here(and should face our legal system) wheres illegal immigrants do not(and should be deported because they lack the legal right to be here) and they can no longer contribute to the problems of our health care system if they are in their own countries and not ours. Controlling the border and illegal immigration would affect uncompensated health care costs in a positive manner. The study you linked acknowledges this, will you? Also i find it odd that this study can divide the rates of insurance by authorized and unauthorized but not the percentile distribution of health care costs.(if someone could tell me why it would be appreciated)

The summary in its entirety wrote:
It is difficult to make the case that unauthorized immigrants, as a group, drive uncompensated care costs. Certainly
the impacts are not uniform. The hospitals in communities with large numbers of uninsured, unauthorized immigrants as
patients bear a disproportionate burden as a result of illegal immigration.
While rates of uninsurance are higher among immigrants as a group (authorized and unauthorized) than in the native-
born population, the number of native-born uninsured is larger than the number of uninsured immigrants. Further,
because immigrant usage of heath care services is significantly lower than that of native-born people, it becomes even
harder to make the case that immigrants drive these costs. Certainly, uncompensated care costs are a serious problem
for the health care system in the United States, particularly in areas with large numbers of uninsured patients. But, while
illegal immigration is a problem with many other dimensions, its links to uncompensated health care costs are far from
straightforward.
contribute to the probem... yes of course. nobody is disputing that. but they are not the majority of the problem, as someone was stating, according to this study.

if you try researching it yourself, you will see more evidence to support what i am saying.

funny but the full quote still supports my point, there are just extraneous summary details. what are you trying to prove here? i'm confused, because you keep offering information that furthers my own point. perhaps you are agreeing with me?


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ikorack
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30 Sep 2010, 9:44 am

hyperlexian wrote:
ikorack wrote:
My apologies i missed the part in parenthesis after one of the statements in your quote. But you quoted roughly half of this study's summary which i think is suspect next time immediately include links with your quotes.

The parts in bold acknowledge a link between uninsured patiences and uncompensated health care, in addition the statistics while not completely supporting my claims do acknowledge that unauthorized immigrants contribute to the problem of uncompensated health care. In fact the file you linked acknowledges a wide gap in rate of uninsured individuals when you compare citizens and legal immigrants.( that is 59% of illegal immigrants(adults) are uninsured in comparison to 25% of legal immigrants and 14% for native born citizens.) this gap is apparent in all the other groups mentioned albeit at different levels.

The study acknowledge that illegal immigration does drive the cost of uncompensated up they just state that it is unclear how much. they also say that native born citizens contribute to uncompensated health care and they are likely correct in this matter however native born citizens have a right to be here(and should face our legal system) wheres illegal immigrants do not(and should be deported because they lack the legal right to be here) and they can no longer contribute to the problems of our health care system if they are in their own countries and not ours. Controlling the border and illegal immigration would affect uncompensated health care costs in a positive manner. The study you linked acknowledges this, will you? Also i find it odd that this study can divide the rates of insurance by authorized and unauthorized but not the percentile distribution of health care costs.(if someone could tell me why it would be appreciated)

The summary in its entirety wrote:
It is difficult to make the case that unauthorized immigrants, as a group, drive uncompensated care costs. Certainly
the impacts are not uniform. The hospitals in communities with large numbers of uninsured, unauthorized immigrants as
patients bear a disproportionate burden as a result of illegal immigration.
While rates of uninsurance are higher among immigrants as a group (authorized and unauthorized) than in the native-
born population, the number of native-born uninsured is larger than the number of uninsured immigrants. Further,
because immigrant usage of heath care services is significantly lower than that of native-born people, it becomes even
harder to make the case that immigrants drive these costs. Certainly, uncompensated care costs are a serious problem
for the health care system in the United States, particularly in areas with large numbers of uninsured patients. But, while
illegal immigration is a problem with many other dimensions, its links to uncompensated health care costs are far from
straightforward.
contribute to the probem... yes of course. nobody is disputing that. but they are not the majority of the problem, as someone was stating, according to this study.

if you try researching it yourself, you will see more evidence to support what i am saying.

funny but the full quote still supports my point, there are just extraneous summary details. what are you trying to prove here? i'm confused, because you keep offering information that furthers my own point. perhaps you are agreeing with me?


Incorrect according to this study the amount of blame attributed to each group can not be accounted for due to lack of data. I'm starting to think your comprehension skills are lacking.

EDIT: It is also natural for the native born group to have a greater effect on any costs they are the larger group. But they are citizens wheres illegal immigrants are not supposed to be here the amount of damage(because they are doing damage) they are doing is irrelevant when you put this into consideration they should be deported.



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30 Sep 2010, 10:27 am

ikorack wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ikorack wrote:
My apologies i missed the part in parenthesis after one of the statements in your quote. But you quoted roughly half of this study's summary which i think is suspect next time immediately include links with your quotes.

The parts in bold acknowledge a link between uninsured patiences and uncompensated health care, in addition the statistics while not completely supporting my claims do acknowledge that unauthorized immigrants contribute to the problem of uncompensated health care. In fact the file you linked acknowledges a wide gap in rate of uninsured individuals when you compare citizens and legal immigrants.( that is 59% of illegal immigrants(adults) are uninsured in comparison to 25% of legal immigrants and 14% for native born citizens.) this gap is apparent in all the other groups mentioned albeit at different levels.

The study acknowledge that illegal immigration does drive the cost of uncompensated up they just state that it is unclear how much. they also say that native born citizens contribute to uncompensated health care and they are likely correct in this matter however native born citizens have a right to be here(and should face our legal system) wheres illegal immigrants do not(and should be deported because they lack the legal right to be here) and they can no longer contribute to the problems of our health care system if they are in their own countries and not ours. Controlling the border and illegal immigration would affect uncompensated health care costs in a positive manner. The study you linked acknowledges this, will you? Also i find it odd that this study can divide the rates of insurance by authorized and unauthorized but not the percentile distribution of health care costs.(if someone could tell me why it would be appreciated)

The summary in its entirety wrote:
It is difficult to make the case that unauthorized immigrants, as a group, drive uncompensated care costs. Certainly
the impacts are not uniform. The hospitals in communities with large numbers of uninsured, unauthorized immigrants as
patients bear a disproportionate burden as a result of illegal immigration.
While rates of uninsurance are higher among immigrants as a group (authorized and unauthorized) than in the native-
born population, the number of native-born uninsured is larger than the number of uninsured immigrants. Further,
because immigrant usage of heath care services is significantly lower than that of native-born people, it becomes even
harder to make the case that immigrants drive these costs.
Certainly, uncompensated care costs are a serious problem
for the health care system in the United States, particularly in areas with large numbers of uninsured patients. But, while
illegal immigration is a problem with many other dimensions, its links to uncompensated health care costs are far from
straightforward.
contribute to the probem... yes of course. nobody is disputing that. but they are not the majority of the problem, as someone was stating, according to this study.

if you try researching it yourself, you will see more evidence to support what i am saying.

funny but the full quote still supports my point, there are just extraneous summary details. what are you trying to prove here? i'm confused, because you keep offering information that furthers my own point. perhaps you are agreeing with me?


Incorrect according to this study the amount of blame attributed to each group can not be accounted for due to lack of data. I'm starting to think your comprehension skills are lacking.

EDIT: It is also natural for the native born group to have a greater effect on any costs they are the larger group. But they are citizens wheres illegal immigrants are not supposed to be here the amount of damage(because they are doing damage) they are doing is irrelevant when you put this into consideration they should be deported.

i didn't ever stae anything about how much of the problem could be attributed to any one group... only that the illegal immigrants were not the biggest part of the problem... if you go back and actually read what i wrote, you could maybe see that for yourself. perhaps.

you haven't presented any valid argument against that point. only that you think that the illegal immigrants are not entitled to be in the united states, and therefore have no actual entitlement to health care... which is moot, because they are receiving the health care whether you agree with it or not.

you can pick that study apart, but you haven't replaced my data with anything except for your own nitpicking arguments.

EDIT: the summary supports exactly what i said. i bolded the applicable part.


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30 Sep 2010, 10:49 am

England has just been informed by the European Union that they must give full welfare rights to anyone who turns up.

That means that any useless Gypsy from Romania (who doesn't even speak English) can demand public housing, money, and full medical coverage.

At least under European law the Romanians are allowed to move to England.

As for Mexicans in America.... What part of "illegal alien" don't you understand?



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30 Sep 2010, 10:59 am

By saying they are not part of the biggest group you are claiming how much of the problem should be attributed to them.(you would be claiming they have hold less blame) I have pointed out that while the study you link claims that they are not the major cause of the problem it also acknowledges that they have no definite way of supporting their claims which is my valid argument against your point. This is not nitpicking this is stating the flaw in your claims that the study supports your argument which it doesn't. I have also argued that how much damage they have done is irrelevant as they are doing damage.

Its not that i think they are not entitled to be in the united states its that they legally have no right to be here, hence the term illegal. Saying my point is moot would be incorrect as all arguments have the potential for change.(assuming your using the word to mean null or pointless)

EDIT: Harder does not make your point harder means that they acknowledge that their results may be argued against with justified doubt.
EDIT2: I do not understand your continued efforts to marginalize the damage they are doing my argument does not hinge on the amount of damage just on that damage is being done. Damage that you have agreed exists.



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30 Sep 2010, 11:02 am

Wombat wrote:
As for Mexicans in America.... What part of "illegal alien" don't you understand?


Thank you.



hyperlexian
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30 Sep 2010, 11:18 am

ikorack wrote:
By saying they are not part of the biggest group you are claiming how much of the problem should be attributed to them.(you would be claiming they have hold less blame) I have pointed out that while the study you link claims that they are not the major cause of the problem it also acknowledges that they have no definite way of supporting their claims which is my valid argument against your point. This is not nitpicking this is stating the flaw in your claims that the study supports your argument which it doesn't. I have also argued that how much damage they have done is irrelevant as they are doing damage.

Its not that i think they are not entitled to be in the united states its that they legally have no right to be here, hence the term illegal. Saying my point is moot would be incorrect as all arguments have the potential for change.(assuming your using the word to mean null or pointless)

EDIT: Harder does not make your point harder means that they acknowledge that their results may be argued against with justified doubt.
EDIT2: I do not understand your continued efforts to marginalize the damage they are doing my argument does not hinge on the amount of damage just on that damage is being done. Damage that you have agreed exists.

did you actually have an argument in there? i am not certain because you don't seem to be working towards any particular point. also, did you bother to go look at any additional research, or did you want to keep trying to fruitlessly nitpick the one single summary?


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30 Sep 2010, 11:21 am

I have stated my point many times, if you can't see it i suggest you start over from the beginning.



Hanotaux
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30 Sep 2010, 2:10 pm

Quote:
You can't have it both ways Hanotaux. You complain that people are not progressing but you don't want to do anything to help that.


Well, in America, we've done nothing but throw billions of dollars at black people in the process of hundreds of 'leg up' programs. So many schemes have been tried........ forced deseg, busing,....... even if I gave a damn, I'd just be at a loss as it seems that possibly the black community isn't putting in the effort on their end.

It seems to me its the black community that wants it both ways........ They always complain about how much 'the man' oppresses them and how bad they have it, but they sure don't complain about the handouts, government cheese, and the quality of life and level of entertainment in this country.

Besides that, I honestly have no idea what more whites could be doing to help blacks? We even voted in an affirmative action president. We throw billions and billions of dollars at minority communities, to see no noticeable improvement. So what else can one suggest?

Over the last 50 years, white progressives have tried everything to help out black people. For example, it was decided to send the top white teachers into hood schools and pay them double salary, as it was thought that 'the best white teachers,' would finally get through to incorrigible black students. But within weeks, most of these little old white ladies had nervous breakdowns from the sheer chaos of the hood schools.

Why should so much money keep getting funneled into dysfunctional communities when the roots of the problems are not addressed?

White American students are not any less intelligent than 'the Germans and Japanese,' (per our test scores.) Even though guys like Clinton won't admit it or state it publically, it is really the minority students with abysmal scores dragging everyone down, and then white students get unfairly shafted with 10-hour school days to compensate.

Consider the current Afro-American push to 'get rid of textbooks' in Public shools, per their delusions that black students 'Aren't verbal learners.' and can't be expected to be bothered with reading a textbook.


Quote:
If you want people to achieve and improve their position you first need them to believe that they can.


I do believe that you can and they can, but black people are so weaned on government handouts and seemingly won't do anything but rely on the Feds and
white people to continue to support them.

If you ever listen to black democrat politicians, pretty much every sentence is prefixed with things like "the government must," or "we need a program." Its always gotta be a taxpayer program for something or another.

I actually think that you are one of the few blacks who actually do transcend, but sadly, your society is not defined by its exceptions.