Page 3 of 5 [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Jookia
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jan 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 410

07 Oct 2010, 8:41 pm

Plants have no neural tissue.



Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

07 Oct 2010, 8:42 pm

I'm aware of that, however that in no way refutes my above post.



Ancalagon
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,302

07 Oct 2010, 8:43 pm

Tensu wrote:
I'm aware of that, however that in no way refutes my above post.

Why not?


_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton


Jookia
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jan 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 410

07 Oct 2010, 8:45 pm

Because he wants to redefine biology.



Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

07 Oct 2010, 8:46 pm

No, I don't. pay attention.



Jookia
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jan 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 410

07 Oct 2010, 9:31 pm

What's your hypothesis on how plants feel pain then?



Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

07 Oct 2010, 9:35 pm

I never said they feel pain. In fact, I specifically said they didn't. Pay attention.



Jookia
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jan 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 410

07 Oct 2010, 9:55 pm

Tensu wrote:
I never said they feel pain. In fact, I specifically said they didn't. Pay attention.


You said they may not feel pain like we do, but they may feel some kind of reaction.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

07 Oct 2010, 10:05 pm

I think the physicalist notion that sentience can only come about when neurons are physically present is far from proven. They often try to argue by defining "sentience" as a type of neuron activity, but to me this seems circular.



danandlouie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Age: 74
Gender: Male
Posts: 796
Location: rainbow bridge

07 Oct 2010, 10:21 pm

how wonderful would it be if earth was visited by a civilization from a distant part of the galaxy? a group that had been traveling at close to light speed for a thousand years, their time.

.....and they are not carbon based. no neural net. something completely unknown to this planet.

how much fun would it be to have some of our citizens, those with a god complex, say....well guess we're not such hot s..t after all.

i can dream, can't i?



Tensu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: Nixa, MO, USA

07 Oct 2010, 10:25 pm

Jookia wrote:
Tensu wrote:
I never said they feel pain. In fact, I specifically said they didn't. Pay attention.


You said they may not feel pain like we do, but they may feel some kind of reaction.


indeed. first off, that isn't saying they feel pain. second, do you have something against this?

sentience, as it is described in my mactionary, is simply the ability to "feel" or "be aware" of things. most of the words we use describe "feeling" something imply some type of nerve activity or thinking, but this is a folly of language: since we have never experienced whatever sensation it is plants "feel" when they process a stimulus, or for that matter the manner in which they process it, we have no words to describe these things properly. But in order to respond to a stimulus, it must, in some way, "notice" that the stimulus has occurred.



Ancalagon
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,302

07 Oct 2010, 11:31 pm

Tensu wrote:
sentience, as it is described in my mactionary, is simply the ability to "feel" or "be aware" of things.

Which they would need neurons to be able to do.

Quote:
since we have never experienced whatever sensation it is plants "feel" when they process a stimulus,

There isn't anything that they feel.

Quote:
But in order to respond to a stimulus, it must, in some way, "notice" that the stimulus has occurred.

Nope. It is not necessary for a thing that responds to something to 'notice' that it has done so. Computer programs do this all the time. So do mousetraps.


_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton


Yanlin
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 6 Oct 2010
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 9

08 Oct 2010, 4:52 am

Note: I skipped half of page 2 and all of page 3 to post this response.

I studied plant biology a bit. As well as neurology and all that fancy fluff.

To understand pain, you need to know what causes it. Pain is purely a chemical reaction in a central nervous system. AKA a brain.

A plant wont FEEL the pain. Its "brain" is basically, the entire body. Every cell is a self contained "brain". Why? Because plants are all basically stem cells. ANY cell can turn into another under proper conditions for plants. You can regrow a whole plant, basically clone it, from one tiny tissue.

However, a plant doesn't feel the pain. It doesn't hurt, it doesn't suffer. It doesn't even know. Plant cells have complex chemical instructions. They react according to their immediate situation. They have no central brain to guide them. Plants are VERY VERY VERY stupid. But thanks to natural selection doing its magic, only smarter plants are left.

Consider this, a plant with cells that don't "compute" properly... Dies. What's left? Cells with proper computing capabilities.

So the plant doesn't feel it lost a leaf, it doesn't feel damaged. It doesn't even know it's damaged. But the cells immediate of that area, do know. Yet don't really feel it to any conscious degree. It's just chemistry, really.



Now in animals and insects, even some rudimentary micro-organisms, pain is registered in a central nerve system. A brain or sorts. The brain, receives signals from a nerve system. Through computation, it is aware of the signal's meaning and spreads the news to the entire brain. Especially parts responsible for consciousness. To sum it up, a sufficiently advanced computer will become aware of itself and form a consciousness. But if it lacks enough advancement to realize that his own consciousness is the result of computation and not something mystical or supernatural, he will be... Religious. :D

Jokes aside, we now know that all brain functions are just... Computations. Complex enough to have a consciousness. Consciousness is an illusion. Free will, is an illusion.

I have a video to link to, but I haven't posted 5 replies yet... So... Can't link it. Available through PM and Email if you must.


_________________
Hey Nitz, I love you. <3

Really, I have nothing else to say here. I'm that boring. :D


thehandmedown
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 204
Location: we are nowhere and its now

08 Oct 2010, 5:02 am

I dont think plants have feelings, but I do think that they communicate in their own ways and have knowledge of their own things



ChrisVulcan
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 361
Location: United States

08 Oct 2010, 9:53 am

Okay, I found some actual information.

"Communication is so important that even the amoeba (an organism made up of a single cell) communicates with other amoebas by chemical discharge. By doing this, one amoeba attracts others to it for reproduction. "

It's on this website: http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/interact ... urce2.html

So, Ruveyn, you were right.


_________________
Well, I was on my way to this gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought, "Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish. I think I'll kill the Fuhrer." Who's with me?

Watch Doctor Who!


sartresue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism

08 Oct 2010, 6:26 pm

Salad ways topic

Why is it important to know about vegetable values? And how can they communicate with us to say how they feel?

A way of measuring when, how and what pain occurs, and its intensity would be a good start. A device to record this could be attached to the plant to clear up the mystery here.


_________________
Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind

Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory

NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo