Employers valuing experience more than education......
19 Oct 2010, 12:42 pm
Clyde wrote:
DemonAbyss10 wrote:
They should start from the bottom up. and you have it a bit backwards IMO. EXPERIENCE IMPLIES YOU KNOW HOW TO WORK THE JOB IN THIS CASE. The degree just illustrates you know the concepts.
I disagree. Yes, the degree shows you understand the concepts. But to gain the actual experience, you need the job for the experience. So you know the experience they are looking for. And that way you can build experience.
That logic can fall into education.
If schools K-12, only let you through education standpoint....no one could gain the education they needed to get into the grade.
Thus a job only letting you through experience standpoint...no one can gain the experience needed to get into the job
Sometimes, experience comes from being given the job to understand the job hands on.
Schools are run for the benefit of the students. But work is not for the benefit of the employees. It is for the benefit of the employers. You are looking at this problem like a student, forgetting that an employer and a teacher are serving two completely different groups.
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19 Oct 2010, 1:19 pm
Janissy wrote:
Clyde wrote:
I think it's ret*d to not hire someone because they have no experience. The point of any job is to gain experience. So, shouldn't jobs do more to acknowledge people are trying to build their experience base?
The point of a job is to gain experience only for the employee. To the employer, that is never the point of a job. To the employer, the point of a job is to get some specific task done. This is why employers value experience. It means they have some assurance that the person they hire will be able to get the task done. They have no such assurance if all they have to go on is a degree. To make yourself appealing to an employer, you have to look at what's in it for them, not what's in it for you.
Couldn't have said it better Janissy
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19 Oct 2010, 1:23 pm
SadAspy wrote:
Quote:
First of all, at least in the U.S., there's still a lot more people without degrees than with them. Among the over-25 crowd, less than 40% have associates, less than 30% have bachelors, and only 10% have advanced degrees. If getting a degree is as easy as you make it out to be, how come so many people DROP OUT?
Those percentages are still technically a large amount of people. when you consider the fact that many people go into the same fields, it creates competition. Not everyone with a degree is gonna find work because of the fact that supply and demand affect even the chances of getting employed IMO.
Also I will say that on a more recent thread you posted, I think the better part of your problem may be due to lack of a wide network. That is what i feel is in fact the issue for most of us on the spectrum in all reality.
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19 Oct 2010, 1:57 pm
A formal education means nothing. Allow me to present you with evidence.
Quote:
Some of the world's most famous and richest billionaires (including the second richest man of the world, Bill Gates) are college dropouts. The combined net worth of these dropouts is USD 246 billion[3]. This list is not exhaustive.
The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is more than double that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if you remove the world's second richest man, Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $53.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. What is true for billionaires holds equally for millionaires: according to a recent report from Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college.[4]
List of college-dropout billionaires
* Bill Gates [1] - US
* Mark Zuckerberg [2] - US
* Lawrence Ellison [3] - US
* Eike Batista [4] - Brazil
* Steve Jobs [5] - US
* Michael Dell [6] - US
* Marc Rich [7] - US
* Ty Warner [8] - US
* Gautam Adani [9] - India
* Micky Jagtiani [10] - India
* Azim Premji - India
* Shahid Balwa [11] - India
* Subhash Chandra [12] - India
* Vinod Goenka [13] - India
* Roman Abramovich [14] - Russia
* Oleg Deripaska [15] - Russia
* Andrey Melnichenko [16] - Russia
* Li Ka-shing [17] - China
* Sheldon Adelson [18] - US
* Amancio Ortega [19] - Spain
* Carl Icahn [20] - US
* Kirk Kerkorian [21]
* Donald Newhouse [22]
* François Pinault [23]
* Jack Taylor [24]
* Joaquín Guzmán Loera [25] (Mexican drug lord) - Mexico
* Dawood Ibrahim [26] (Indian crime-boss) - India
* Hasan Ali Khan (Money-launderer) - India
* David Geffen [27]
* David Murdock [28]
* Dean Kamen [29]
* Ted Turner [30] - US
* Henry Fok [31]
* Ralph Lauren [32]
* Micky Arison - US
* Stanley Ho [33]
Others
Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page though also technically college dropouts, as they dropped out of their PhD programmes, are not included here as this list includes only those who have not even completed a Bachelor's degree.
Famous college-dropout billionaires from history
* John D. Rockefeller - American oil magnate
* Howard Hughes - American movie maker
* Pablo Escobar - Colombian drug lord
* Amado Carrillo Fuentes - Mexican drug lord
* Dhirubhai Ambani - Indian business tycoon
* Adnan Khashoggi - Saudi-Arabian arms dealer
The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is more than double that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if you remove the world's second richest man, Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $53.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. What is true for billionaires holds equally for millionaires: according to a recent report from Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college.[4]
List of college-dropout billionaires
* Bill Gates [1] - US
* Mark Zuckerberg [2] - US
* Lawrence Ellison [3] - US
* Eike Batista [4] - Brazil
* Steve Jobs [5] - US
* Michael Dell [6] - US
* Marc Rich [7] - US
* Ty Warner [8] - US
* Gautam Adani [9] - India
* Micky Jagtiani [10] - India
* Azim Premji - India
* Shahid Balwa [11] - India
* Subhash Chandra [12] - India
* Vinod Goenka [13] - India
* Roman Abramovich [14] - Russia
* Oleg Deripaska [15] - Russia
* Andrey Melnichenko [16] - Russia
* Li Ka-shing [17] - China
* Sheldon Adelson [18] - US
* Amancio Ortega [19] - Spain
* Carl Icahn [20] - US
* Kirk Kerkorian [21]
* Donald Newhouse [22]
* François Pinault [23]
* Jack Taylor [24]
* Joaquín Guzmán Loera [25] (Mexican drug lord) - Mexico
* Dawood Ibrahim [26] (Indian crime-boss) - India
* Hasan Ali Khan (Money-launderer) - India
* David Geffen [27]
* David Murdock [28]
* Dean Kamen [29]
* Ted Turner [30] - US
* Henry Fok [31]
* Ralph Lauren [32]
* Micky Arison - US
* Stanley Ho [33]
Others
Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page though also technically college dropouts, as they dropped out of their PhD programmes, are not included here as this list includes only those who have not even completed a Bachelor's degree.
Famous college-dropout billionaires from history
* John D. Rockefeller - American oil magnate
* Howard Hughes - American movie maker
* Pablo Escobar - Colombian drug lord
* Amado Carrillo Fuentes - Mexican drug lord
* Dhirubhai Ambani - Indian business tycoon
* Adnan Khashoggi - Saudi-Arabian arms dealer
Source
19 Oct 2010, 2:21 pm
Janissy wrote:
Clyde wrote:
I think it's ret*d to not hire someone because they have no experience. The point of any job is to gain experience. So, shouldn't jobs do more to acknowledge people are trying to build their experience base?
The point of a job is to gain experience only for the employee. To the employer, that is never the point of a job. To the employer, the point of a job is to get some specific task done. This is why employers value experience. It means they have some assurance that the person they hire will be able to get the task done. They have no such assurance if all they have to go on is a degree. To make yourself appealing to an employer, you have to look at what's in it for them, not what's in it for you.
An education tells an employer that the person is willing to work their butts off for a certain number of years for NO PAY and in fact actually PAY for the privilege of doing it. Experience only tells an employer that a person was willing to put up with a certain amount of bs in exchange for a paycheck. You tell me which should be more valued.
Quote:
Some of the world's most famous and richest billionaires (including the second richest man of the world, Bill Gates) are college dropouts. The combined net worth of these dropouts is USD 246 billion[3]. This list is not exhaustive.
The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is more than double that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if you remove the world's second richest man, Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $53.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. What is true for billionaires holds equally for millionaires: according to a recent report from Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college.
List of college-dropout billionaires
* Bill Gates [1] - US
* Mark Zuckerberg [2] - US
* Lawrence Ellison [3] - US
* Eike Batista [4] - Brazil
* Steve Jobs [5] - US
* Michael Dell [6] - US
* Marc Rich [7] - US
* Ty Warner [8] - US
* Gautam Adani [9] - India
* Micky Jagtiani [10] - India
* Azim Premji - India
* Shahid Balwa [11] - India
* Subhash Chandra [12] - India
* Vinod Goenka [13] - India
* Roman Abramovich [14] - Russia
* Oleg Deripaska [15] - Russia
* Andrey Melnichenko [16] - Russia
* Li Ka-shing [17] - China
* Sheldon Adelson [18] - US
* Amancio Ortega [19] - Spain
* Carl Icahn [20] - US
* Kirk Kerkorian [21]
* Donald Newhouse [22]
* François Pinault [23]
* Jack Taylor [24]
* Joaquín Guzmán Loera [25] (Mexican drug lord) - Mexico
* Dawood Ibrahim [26] (Indian crime-boss) - India
* Hasan Ali Khan (Money-launderer) - India
* David Geffen [27]
* David Murdock [28]
* Dean Kamen [29]
* Ted Turner [30] - US
* Henry Fok [31]
* Ralph Lauren [32]
* Micky Arison - US
* Stanley Ho [33]
Others
Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page though also technically college dropouts, as they dropped out of their PhD programmes, are not included here as this list includes only those who have not even completed a Bachelor's degree.
Famous college-dropout billionaires from history
* John D. Rockefeller - American oil magnate
* Howard Hughes - American movie maker
* Pablo Escobar - Colombian drug lord
* Amado Carrillo Fuentes - Mexican drug lord
* Dhirubhai Ambani - Indian business tycoon
* Adnan Khashoggi - Saudi-Arabian arms dealer
The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is more than double that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if you remove the world's second richest man, Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $53.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. What is true for billionaires holds equally for millionaires: according to a recent report from Cambridge, Mass.-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college.
List of college-dropout billionaires
* Bill Gates [1] - US
* Mark Zuckerberg [2] - US
* Lawrence Ellison [3] - US
* Eike Batista [4] - Brazil
* Steve Jobs [5] - US
* Michael Dell [6] - US
* Marc Rich [7] - US
* Ty Warner [8] - US
* Gautam Adani [9] - India
* Micky Jagtiani [10] - India
* Azim Premji - India
* Shahid Balwa [11] - India
* Subhash Chandra [12] - India
* Vinod Goenka [13] - India
* Roman Abramovich [14] - Russia
* Oleg Deripaska [15] - Russia
* Andrey Melnichenko [16] - Russia
* Li Ka-shing [17] - China
* Sheldon Adelson [18] - US
* Amancio Ortega [19] - Spain
* Carl Icahn [20] - US
* Kirk Kerkorian [21]
* Donald Newhouse [22]
* François Pinault [23]
* Jack Taylor [24]
* Joaquín Guzmán Loera [25] (Mexican drug lord) - Mexico
* Dawood Ibrahim [26] (Indian crime-boss) - India
* Hasan Ali Khan (Money-launderer) - India
* David Geffen [27]
* David Murdock [28]
* Dean Kamen [29]
* Ted Turner [30] - US
* Henry Fok [31]
* Ralph Lauren [32]
* Micky Arison - US
* Stanley Ho [33]
Others
Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page though also technically college dropouts, as they dropped out of their PhD programmes, are not included here as this list includes only those who have not even completed a Bachelor's degree.
Famous college-dropout billionaires from history
* John D. Rockefeller - American oil magnate
* Howard Hughes - American movie maker
* Pablo Escobar - Colombian drug lord
* Amado Carrillo Fuentes - Mexican drug lord
* Dhirubhai Ambani - Indian business tycoon
* Adnan Khashoggi - Saudi-Arabian arms dealer
20% of millionaires never went to college? Uh dude...that's not a very high number. The fact that there are more college drop-out billionaires than Phd. billionaires does raise an eyebrow, but think how few people actually become billionaires. The fact still remains that in the aggregate, the better-educated you are, the more money you will make. Pointing out a handful of exceptions does not prove a rule.
And the first two people on your list are HARVARD drop-outs...just having been accepted to Harvard distinguishes somebody more than graduating from most public universities.
19 Oct 2010, 2:24 pm
SadAspy wrote:
The fact that there are more college drop-out billionaires than Phd. billionaires does raise an eyebrow, but think how few people actually become billionaires. The fact still remains that in the aggregate, the better-educated you are, the more money you will make. Pointing out a handful of exceptions does not prove a rule.
And the first two people on your list are HARVARD drop-outs...just having been accepted to Harvard distinguishes somebody more than graduating from most public universities.
And the first two people on your list are HARVARD drop-outs...just having been accepted to Harvard distinguishes somebody more than graduating from most public universities.
Think of how very few Harvard graduates became billionaires, though. That number is less than those who dropped out of any college. Says something, that does.
19 Oct 2010, 5:12 pm
SadAspy wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Clyde wrote:
I think it's ret*d to not hire someone because they have no experience. The point of any job is to gain experience. So, shouldn't jobs do more to acknowledge people are trying to build their experience base?
The point of a job is to gain experience only for the employee. To the employer, that is never the point of a job. To the employer, the point of a job is to get some specific task done. This is why employers value experience. It means they have some assurance that the person they hire will be able to get the task done. They have no such assurance if all they have to go on is a degree. To make yourself appealing to an employer, you have to look at what's in it for them, not what's in it for you.
An education tells an employer that the person is willing to work their butts off for a certain number of years for NO PAY and in fact actually PAY for the privilege of doing it. Experience only tells an employer that a person was willing to put up with a certain amount of bs in exchange for a paycheck. You tell me which should be more valued.
.
Education does show tenacity. And tenacity is a good thing. But you aren't that putting up with a certain amount of bs in exchange for a paycheck is also a quality that employers value. Plus it's hard to hold a job for any length of time without absorbing at least some of what the work entails. There are many jobs (presumably one of these is the job you want) where employers want both- they want both the degree and the work experience. In this market, and with so many unemployed college graduates, they can afford to hold out for somebody with both. At this point, you need to go for the entry level positions that are low pay and also try to find any volunteer opportunity that in some way uses the skills you want a future employer to know about.
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19 Oct 2010, 9:30 pm
SadAspy wrote:
I've been trying to get entry-level jobs. I can't. Not only that, I really can't even get interviews for them! And all this despite the fact that I have a master's and I do have SOME work experience.
Since its a masters, you could actually be overqualified for a position. Not to mention the fact that the economy is in a ditch dying along with a large amount of competition for any job thats just lying around.
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20 Oct 2010, 7:19 am
Janissy wrote:
Clyde wrote:
I think it's ret*d to not hire someone because they have no experience. The point of any job is to gain experience. So, shouldn't jobs do more to acknowledge people are trying to build their experience base?
The point of a job is to gain experience only for the employee. To the employer, that is never the point of a job. To the employer, the point of a job is to get some specific task done. This is why employers value experience. It means they have some assurance that the person they hire will be able to get the task done. They have no such assurance if all they have to go on is a degree. To make yourself appealing to an employer, you have to look at what's in it for them, not what's in it for you.
But how the hell do you GET that experience when you're looking for that first job out of college, and you happened to graduate from a community college in liberal arts with NO internship opportunities? And don't bash me for getting a Liberal Arts degree, the reason why I did, well, that reason is confidential, and you need to respect that, but DO NOT bash me for it. And furthermore, there are some people out there who DO have experience and a degree, but still can't get a job? ***** ******' ******, how the hell am I supposed to be successful and own a nice home theater, house, etc., when I can't even get an entry level job? And don't tell me s**t about the economy today, I don't live under a rock!
20 Oct 2010, 10:00 am
DemonAbyss10 wrote:
Since its a masters, you could actually be overqualified for a position.
This is probably true...I'm having a hard time finding jobs that I'm neither underqualified nor overqualified for. I mean maybe a 50K annual salary is too much for me to expect in this economy, but how much lower do I go? I had a job making 35K (albeit with overtime) between undergrad and grad school, but yeah, the economy was better then.
Stereokid wrote:
But how the hell do you GET that experience when you're looking for that first job out of college, and you happened to graduate from a community college in liberal arts with NO internship opportunities? And don't bash me for getting a Liberal Arts degree, the reason why I did, well, that reason is confidential, and you need to respect that, but DO NOT bash me for it.!
I have a Social Science degree and before anyone bashes me for that, I ONLY apply for jobs that desire that type of degree or say that any type of degree will suffice. Hell, the average person with a bachelor's in my field makes 40K to start and I can't even get that with my master's.
As for internships, everyone told me it was more important to graduate on time than to do internships. Boy were they wrong about that!
20 Oct 2010, 11:04 am
I had internships while going to school. They are important, very important. My internships helped me in my career down the road. Hell my work study helped me down the road. You don't need to take off school while you are doing one. I was going to school full time. I also was a TA (as an undergrad). I have a BS in History and Political Science. I also have a JD. I worked in the law libraries technical services department (I am now an archivist). I had an internship with a state legislator and a non-profit while getting my JD. Experience does matter, quite a great deal. There are skills you develop that classes will not necessarily teach you.
Also with regards to a liberal arts degree, it does not necessarily mean you cannot get a job. But as somebody who HAS hired somebody experience does matter.
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20 Oct 2010, 4:39 pm
SadAspy wrote:
Quote:
You don't need to take off school while you are doing one.
While I have no doubt there are people who can juggle being a full-time student and an internship at the same time I wasn't one of them-at least not when I was an undergraduate.
I know many of the colleges in my area actually give ya credit towards college work if you do an internship, which does make it easier to juggle around with school. Round here they call it a work-study program, and it makes your internship hours count towards your major credit wise.
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