How do I get my son to try new foods?

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deadeyexx
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18 Oct 2010, 3:56 pm

buryuntime wrote:
deadeyexx wrote:
To get someone out of thier comfort zone, I think you have to remove them from it, and not make them able to come back to it. I was a real picky eater. I couldn't even eat a sandwich because I hated multiple kinds of food touching each other. What turned it around for me was when I went to cub scout camp. I was away from anyone who would cater to me for a week. If food was put in front of you, no matter what it was, your choices were to eat it or not. I could hold out some, but sooner or later, my hunger overrode my pickiness.

I highly advise against this. Autistics are known for their stubbornness and some foods from sensory issues will make them feel sick. Using this method on me... I'm 100% sure I would have just starved.


Well, I didn't learn right away. I would pick everything apart into thier component parts and trade for extra food I could tolerate. The point is, I had to work with what I had, and that's what helped.



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18 Oct 2010, 4:22 pm

deadeyexx wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
deadeyexx wrote:
To get someone out of thier comfort zone, I think you have to remove them from it, and not make them able to come back to it. I was a real picky eater. I couldn't even eat a sandwich because I hated multiple kinds of food touching each other. What turned it around for me was when I went to cub scout camp. I was away from anyone who would cater to me for a week. If food was put in front of you, no matter what it was, your choices were to eat it or not. I could hold out some, but sooner or later, my hunger overrode my pickiness.

I highly advise against this. Autistics are known for their stubbornness and some foods from sensory issues will make them feel sick. Using this method on me... I'm 100% sure I would have just starved.


Well, I didn't learn right away. I would pick everything apart into thier component parts and trade for extra food I could tolerate. The point is, I had to work with what I had, and that's what helped.


I agree, deadeyexx, that's the way it was in my home growing up, eat it or don't eat. I could avoid the stuff that I really hated, but I never got anything that wasn't on the table for everyone. There are things I still won't touch for love or money, and some that I picked up a liking for over the years that I wouldn't eat as a kid, but being too finicky just left me with a rumbling stomach. A very persuasive argument for eating what you're given, even if you have to douse it with so much ketchup you can't see or taste it.


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ouinon
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18 Oct 2010, 4:57 pm

From the list of foods you say he will eat I think it sounds as if he is addicted to wheat, ( and somewhat to sugar, and perhaps dairy, eggs, and oranges too ). The pattern of only eating foods, or preferring foods, which have wheat in them is a classic sign of "masked" gluten intolerance, like an alcoholic who needs/craves their hair of the dog and will only eat the barest minimum of anything solid.

The food that you say he will eat is made up of almost entirely of the most common food allergy/intolerance items; wheat/gluten, dairy/casein, orange/citrus, sugar, and egg ( and peanuts; you're just missing pork and soya! :lol ).

I suspect that it would take an exclusion diet of no wheat/gluten, dairy, sugar, orange and egg, to uncover his "real" reactions to these foods. ie. if you cut these foods out, totally, no contamination, which means very fresh simple unprocessed foods, and then reintroduced them one at a time, ( five days at least between each new item/food group test ), you would see symptoms of food intolerance, unmasked/made visible by a period without them, and probably be surprised by how bad/negative they are; like violent mood changes, headaches, skin reactions, gut problems, disturbed sleep, etc.

You could try just cutting out one of the likely "offenders", wheat/gluten, for instance, and allow him all the other foods he likes, ( the non-gluten containing ones * ), while excluding gluten ... and then after seven days try reintroducing a small amount of the plainest sort of wheat food. eg. Try feeding him nothing but scrambled eggs, ( plain unflavoured salted ) rice, ( maybe with a gf tomato sauce if he likes that ), apples, and orange juice for a week ... then see what effect a piece of bread has!

But it's amazing how food intolerance/sensitivity will take over like this, so that foods which do not contain enough of the desired ingredient become unpalatable, literally repellent, because do not deliver the "buzz"/hair of the dog effect.

*McDonald's and most fast food restaurant's french fries contain wheat ( and dairy ). So do most brands of "oven chips", flavoured crisps, soya sauce, some varieties of spring rolls, many sausages, hams, and vinegar, aswell as some fast-food restaurant scrambled eggs.
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2berrryblondeboys
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18 Oct 2010, 7:33 pm

Having no wheat would be a starvation diet. You make it sound so easy. He only eats a few things on a daily basis. I can sometimes get him to eat eggs. and so on. When a child has a VERY limited diet, taking away that key thing is very, very hard to replace. He can't eat all day on apples.

My understanding with gluten intolerances is that he would have digestive issues. He has none. He doesn't have diarhea or constipation. I've looked into going gluten free, but we're talking more than 5 days of it being out of the diet. Add in taking away milk?

And is it just taking away gluten enough, or is even gluten free enough - does it need to be completely wheat free? And how could I have him being the only one giving it up? Not going to happen. unless I saw that he truly had problems with gluten.

You all who don't have keeps with very restricted diets don't get how getting them to eat something else is near impossible. WHich is why I asked for help. I know, 'but he eats tomato sauce on pizza - yes, on pizza - that does not translate to putting it on ANYTHING else. Remember, visual eater.

SHould also say, he's enormous. He's always been over the 97th percentile for height and a big stocky build (though not overweight). He's extremely healthy - rarely getting any illnesses - no problems with joint pain, headaches, etc.



willaful
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19 Oct 2010, 1:58 am

Sounds very similar to my son. We've been having some success with new foods recently - I wrote a post a while back in this forum about it. He tried a raspberry from my garden the other day - not exactly a "new" food because he's been eating them frozen for a little while, but he considered it one and was thrilled. :D

What has worked with us is getting him excited about the idea and then making it go as positively as possible. Any kind of pressure in this areas shuts him right down. My husband started out introducing him to very kid friendly food as part of special times together. Once he got interested in the idea of trying new foods, we were able to move on to healthier items. Vegetables are still out of the picture, but I'm happy he's having fruit now.


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ouinon
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19 Oct 2010, 1:59 am

2berrryblondeboys wrote:
Having no wheat would be a starvation diet.

Rice, scrambled eggs, orange juice and apple doesn't sound like a starvation diet to me, ( especially if he will eat the peel on the apple for some fibre so he doesn't get too constipated ).

Quote:
He only eats a few things on a daily basis. I can sometimes get him to eat eggs. ... He can't eat all day on apples.

Do you mean he would refuse to eat eggs every day? What about rice? If he can eat some rice every day for five days, egg every two or three days, and apples, plus maybe milk ( ? ) and spoonfuls of peanut butter, or peanut butter on ( gf ) rice-crackers then he should be fine. He certainly wouldn't starve. Also what about fried potato, ( not the oven-chips kind with wheat dextrose etc in, but fresh fried potatoes ), or mashed potato or baked or sliced and made into a gratin dauphinois with milk and cream?

The thing is that his "visual" reactions to food may be based on whether he can see that it has wheat, or enough wheat, ( or sugar, cheese, egg, or butter/milk, orange, etc ), in it to serve as a "maintenance dose". ie. his hyperreactivity to food's appearance could be one of the symptoms of food intolerance and addiction. Is he mostly only prepared to eat a non-glutenous food after he has already had a good dose of gluten? Or will he happily start a meal with a non-glutenous/non-wheat food?

Quote:
My understanding with gluten intolerances is that he would have digestive issues. He has none. He doesn't have diarhea or constipation.

Gastrointestinal issues are present in classic celiac disease, and many cases of gluten-intolerance, but studies/research over the last 20-30 years have shown that there may be no GI problems at all, or none that the person is aware of. An absence of GI issues is definitely no indication that he hasn't got a gluten intolerance.

Skin disorders and peripheral neuropathies are two other "gross" symptoms, but in many people for many years the damage that is going on inside may only be visible as addiction to the food. And research suggests that it is precisely those people with few or no GI symptoms who may be most affected in other ways, ( brain, etc ).

Quote:
I've looked into going gluten free, but we're talking more than 5 days of it being out of the diet. Add in taking away milk?

You only need to remove milk if you want to exclude casein straightaway aswell, but as I said it might be a good idea to start with just one food group, gluten, and so he could keep eating milk and grilled cheese, and other dairy ( check for modified wheat starch in yoghurts ).

Quote:
And is it just taking away gluten enough, or is even gluten free enough - does it need to be completely wheat free? And how could I have him being the only one giving it up? Not going to happen. unless I saw that he truly had problems with gluten.

Many many cases of food intolerance are what is called "masked", masked by the daily exposure to that food, the way that an alcoholic "manages" their symptoms with alcohol. You need to exclude a food for a minimum of five days in order to "expose" the real reaction to that food, ( seven days if has constipation ).

You would need to exclude all sources of gluten for those five days at least in order to see if "he truly had problems" with it. Gluten is in wheat, rye and barley, and most oats are contaminated by it. Gluten is in an awful lot of processed foods, in the form of hydrolysed vegetable protein, and modified starch and dextrose, and things like vinegar, soya sauce.

Grit your teeth for five/seven days, don't worry if all he eats is rice and more rice, or buckets of peanut butter and gallons of orange juice, or nothing but plain salted potato crisps/"chips" ( flavoured ones have gluten in ), and apples. At the end of five/seven days try a slice of bread or two, and allow 24 hours to see what effect it has.

If he has a gluten intolerance the exclusion diet should have "unmasked" it and you may be surprised even shocked by the violence of his reactions. If he has no symptoms, ( in mood, breathing, skin, aches of any kind, sleep patterns, cognitive functioning, aswell as guts ), breathe a sigh of relief and try dairy or sugar or eggs.

If he has symptoms then he would have to avoid all wheat, rye and barley. But on the other hand he could eat mountains of rice, potato, even corn, ( many cornflakes/corn cereals contain gluten though, esp in form of malt ), and eliminating that food intolerance and consequent addiction from his diet would almost certainly result in his eating far less rigidly/restrictedly ( more meat and/or fish, some green veg/salad perhaps ).

I realise that it would involve time and effort. I know that it isn't easy. It depends on how much of a problem his fussiness about food is for you. If going gf would be more trouble than trying to find foods he will eat, then I can see that it might not seem worth it ... but just five days to find out if it is an issue would be a precious investment in his health.

I wish that my mother had known about this when I was a toddler. The effects of undiagnosed celiac disease and gluten intolerance can range from autoimmune thyroid disorders such as Hashimotos, through diabetes as a result of damage to the pancreas, peripheral neuropathies/ataxia, infertility, shorter lifespan, ( I am listing from solid scientific research papers here ), to mood disorder, and schizophrenia, ( again a recent study ), aswell as more generalised things like permanent fatigue, "brain fog", frequent headaches, anxiety and depression, skin disorders, obesity, etc etc etc, only some of which would be reversible.
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2berrryblondeboys
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19 Oct 2010, 6:02 am

To try it would mean getting all wheat stuff out of the house - for five people, because if he sees it and he's told he can't have it, then we would have a melt down. He, at 5, would not understand why grandma can have bread and he can't when he always has.

Could I get him to eat rice every day? Sure, but plain, not mixed with ANYTHING. Apples and oranges every day, sure, but rice crackers? Nope. He doesn't eat crackers. Scrambled eggs? Nope - maybe once a week. So, that would leave apples and plain rice and oranges, orange juice which, even with the fiber in the apples would leave him bound up. maybe, if I'm lucky gluten free flours would be OK for pizza and bread. If we could manage that, eh would survive. If not... nope. The kid would starve himself before trying something new.

Does he need a wheat fix before eating other things? No.

But from what I've read, it's not 5 days to be gluten free but for WEEKS. 5 days, OK we could do it (maybe - hard to know how he will react. I could make gluten free bread - I make all our bread), but after reading at least 2 dozen articles, I see they recommend several weeks. Not just several days.

I will look into it as I would be very angry with myself if I later found out he had a hidden gluten/wheat problem, but I also know right now that they are trying to fix every problem under the sun with gluten free - it's a fad and I don't think it will last. Because it is a fad, I also can find ingredients readily, but I am not hopeful in seeing results. His symptoms started before he started to eat - he didn't eat ANYTHING at all until he was 11 months old. Yes, true, he could have gotten wheat/gluten through breast milk, not enough studies have been found/done, but I'm not hopeful with losing gluten to solve all answers to our problem.



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19 Oct 2010, 6:47 am

2berrryblondeboys wrote:
But from what I've read, it's not 5 days to be gluten free but for WEEKS. 5 days, OK we could do it (maybe - hard to know how he will react. I could make gluten free bread - I make all our bread), but after reading at least 2 dozen articles, I see they recommend several weeks. Not just several days.

It takes up to 26 weeks for gluten to leave the whole body, especially the liver, and up to two years sometimes longer for the autoimmune system response to calm down, and for gliadin-antibody levels to return to "normal" levels, ( if there is an immune system response ), such that people going gluten-free will often see dramatic improvements about the 6 month mark, and again at a year or later, but for the purposes of "unmasking" a "hidden" food intolerance five to seven days is almost always sufficient. It's a kind of test, rather than a full-blown gf diet.

But it does have to be done properly, completely, otherwise it doesn't work, so yes, you might have to pack all the glutenous foods in the house away for five to seven days, and eat lots of rice and potato based meals for the duration, ( also useful for avoiding gluten-contamination during cooking/food preparation ), but the results can be spectacular even after such a short period. I noticed the difference on the fourth morning; it was amazing, wonderful, and most importantly, unmistakeable.

( ... And allow 24 hours at least to see what reactions he has, if any, to the first glutenous food that you test after 5-7 days ).

PS. Gluten-free flour for replacement pizza meals etc is a very good idea, :) but be really careful which brands you use because some of them are labelled gf but contain what the govt has ruled count as negligible amounts of gluten, but which might still have an effect. ... Check the ingredients lists. Some shops sell gf pizzas readymade aswell.

PPS. It could be interesting seeing how he reacts to gf pizza, because he will probably realise within minutes, however delicious it is, that something about it isn't as "exciting"/"satisfying" as usual. I don't know whether an aspie/autie child might even see it as a deception, if you didn't warn him beforehand. Might be a good idea to tell him, even if that means he doesn't eat it, rather than have him hate the idea of "cheating"/lieing/"fake" gf foods from then on.
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19 Oct 2010, 9:28 am

Avengilante wrote:
deadeyexx wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
deadeyexx wrote:
To get someone out of thier comfort zone, I think you have to remove them from it, and not make them able to come back to it. I was a real picky eater. I couldn't even eat a sandwich because I hated multiple kinds of food touching each other. What turned it around for me was when I went to cub scout camp. I was away from anyone who would cater to me for a week. If food was put in front of you, no matter what it was, your choices were to eat it or not. I could hold out some, but sooner or later, my hunger overrode my pickiness.

I highly advise against this. Autistics are known for their stubbornness and some foods from sensory issues will make them feel sick. Using this method on me... I'm 100% sure I would have just starved.


Well, I didn't learn right away. I would pick everything apart into thier component parts and trade for extra food I could tolerate. The point is, I had to work with what I had, and that's what helped.


I agree, deadeyexx, that's the way it was in my home growing up, eat it or don't eat. I could avoid the stuff that I really hated, but I never got anything that wasn't on the table for everyone. There are things I still won't touch for love or money, and some that I picked up a liking for over the years that I wouldn't eat as a kid, but being too finicky just left me with a rumbling stomach. A very persuasive argument for eating what you're given, even if you have to douse it with so much ketchup you can't see or taste it.


This is pretty much the case with my son too. He was a very picky eater, mostly because of sensory issues (we think). We tried offering him "dip" for anything he had reluctance towards - mostly ketchup, but also ranch dressing. This made a huge difference because he loved dipping his food. We made sure that there was at least something on his plate that he would eat and the rest would be whatever everyone else was having. I'm not a short order cook - you get what you get. It's been a slow but sure process and now, several years later, he's a wonderful eater. We're trying to get him off the dip, but he's not short on nutrients and is growing well so we pick our battles. He still has a few things that he won't touch and that's fine. We never force, but we do have the "one no thank you bite" rule.

I was a tremendously picky eater as a kid and I remember a bit of a breakthrough at sleep-away camp. My diet wasn't catered to, so I had to eat what they served or starve. I wasn't happy, but I didn't starve. I often wonder about how many picky eaters there are in third-world countries, but I digress...

Now my daughter on the other hand, ugh. She's 2.5 and will only eat 2 or 3 adult foods. She's still on baby food because it's the only way to get her to eat anything nutritious. It's completely rediculous and frankly, I'm rather embarassed about it. She will indeed refuse to eat and starve and she's tiny so I'm too scared to cut her off of baby food just yet. I have no answers in this case. We've tried it all but she's just so stubborn and fiercly independant that, so far, it's been a losing battle.

I don't know about the gluten-free diet idea. To me, it sounds like you'd be barking up the wrong tree, kind of like putting a band-aid on your finger to stop a headache.



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19 Oct 2010, 12:20 pm

2berrryblondeboys wrote:
But from what I've read, it's not 5 days to be gluten free but for WEEKS. 5 days, OK we could do it (maybe - hard to know how he will react. I could make gluten free bread - I make all our bread), but after reading at least 2 dozen articles, I see they recommend several weeks. Not just several days.


I believe you are right, which is why I'm always skeptical when people skip gluten for one meal and report great effects, or say they had strong reactions from one meal with wheat. I don't see how when someone eats gluten could possibly affect them all that much, if they eat it regularly.

Going GF is an extremely big commitment--I have done it, so I'm not talking out my butt-- and I don't blame you at all for not wanting to try it without far more reason than you currently have for suspecting it might be an issue. We all have to prioritize and we can't try everything.


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19 Oct 2010, 12:36 pm

I was just remembering the first time we went to family camp, when my son was three. He ate almost nothing and visibly lost weight. I thought "It'll be easier next year, there will be more foods he could eat." But it wasn't. Nor the year after that. But somewhere along the line, it did start to get easier. There was more and more he would eat. For the last two years, we haven't needed to bring any extra food with us at all. This last summer, he really got into trying new things there - his first blueberry muffin in years, for example.

I think not pressuring was the main thing. The more he associates trying food with fear or resentment, the harder it gets. He now associates it with being proud of himself, and having us be proud of him.


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19 Oct 2010, 12:51 pm

willaful wrote:
I think not pressuring was the main thing. The more he associates trying food with fear or resentment, the harder it gets. He now associates it with being proud of himself, and having us be proud of him.


I think you're exactly right. In my own experience, I learned to try new foods, and I discovered my own tastes were changing. The foods I tried on my own, almost without exception, I liked. The ones I was pressured to try, I still don't like - even ones I now actively wish I could learn to like. By applying pressure, my parents got me to eat a few things occasionally - and guaranteed that I would never have an easy time eating those things once I was old enough to make my own choices. I don't even have an easy time eating things that "have a resonance" (trigger some memory or suggest some connection) with those foods. And my few limited successes in this "damaged" area are still very circumscribed and hedged about by restrictions.

And my parents tried letting me go hungry. I held out pretty well, until they got scared and relented somewhat. They did score a few minor victories that way - but every one of those victories is a food I haven't eaten in decades and probably never will be able to. The most they ever gained was a temporary ability to force me to choke something down, learning to hate it more with every mouthful. The really annoying part is that, now I understand the pattern of my food preferences, I suspect all of these foods are things I could eat now, if I hadn't been taught to utterly detest them already.

(The ones I know I wouldn't like no matter what are foods they never did manage to get me to eat at all - if I hated it that badly, I'd torture myself as much as I had to in order to escape eating it. Even so hungry I was in agony, I wouldn't eat some things. The ones you could get me to eat at all, those were the ones I could eventually have relaxed on, if allowed to do so at my own pace.)

This even seems to work as an adult. I have learned not to allow myself to be "put on the spot" so that I "have" to try anything new. The few times that happened, I have learned to dislike that food.


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19 Oct 2010, 1:29 pm

Forgive me if I've posted this before, but the one area where we have very little trouble with DS is eating - and I feel this is in large part to some very excellent advice from Dietician and Social Worker Ellyn Satter, whose principles in feeding I followed in large part from when my son was breastfeeding.

A couple of ideas: are there foods your son will eat that are part of the GF diet? When my son went through the picky-eating phase that is normal for preschoolers, I served him the same meal we all ate - but I made sure that at least one of the foods in that meal was something he would eat: the rest, I left up to him. We did explain that we don't expect that he will like every food he tries, and offered advice on how to get rid of a bad taste or texture, like washing it down with water or following it with a big bite of the food he likes (most of his dislikes, not surprisingly, are texture-related.) BTW, several Asian pastas are naturally GF; they do have a different texture, but they might work better than GF pastas that are trying to pretend they're like spaghetti.

We do now (against Ms. Satter's advice, but it works for us) ask DS to take one bite of each food on his plate - which he is allowed to wash down with a drink or whatever - but we are doing this with his full cooperation, which is why it works. I don't ask him to do this with, for instance, chili peppers - he can't tolerate hot/spicy and I respect that.

I'm finding with anything to do with autism - it's a tricky dance to tease out what they simply can't tolerate from what they are uncomfortable with but are able to tolerate (and how much of the aforementioned discomfort adds up to can't.)