Advice requested in regards to 15 year old son

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websister
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06 Nov 2010, 11:42 pm

psychohist wrote:

momsparky wrote:

I would make sure you point out to the principal that they are setting a bad precedent by punishing a child for telling the truth and accepting the blame for other people.

That's not what he's being punished for. He's being punished for breaking a school rule that's a perfectly sensible rule, and for protecting the guilty. While I agree the "don't snitch" mentality is predominant in neurotypical society, that's not a good thing - it's one of the reasons why society functions so poorly. It would be better if everyone were honest all the time.

I know women who had their hair set on fire in high school. If someone burns his own hair by accident, the next step may be burning someone else's hair on purpose. The fact that this school is nipping this kind of behavior in the bud is a point in their favor, not a point against them.

It's unfortunate that the original poster's son may have to learn these rules one rule at a time. That's not a reason to fail to enforce good rules, though.

I did want to clarify that it was not my son that lit anyone's hair on fire, including his own. I think it is good that they take things seriously, however in this case the person that did use a lighter on hair has gotten away with it.
I'm not sure that I understand your comment .... OP's son may have to learn these rules one rule at a time?

websister
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07 Nov 2010, 12:02 am

DenvrDave wrote:

About this:

websister wrote:

He is also concerned as he has received several lates from a teacher in a class he has right after phys. ed. If he gets 10 lates we will also be suspended. He says he tries to dress quickly but he has also always had fine motor difficulties/motor planning problems and it does take him longer to dress. I did explain to the teacher why my son was late but apparently he is still marking him late.

Does your son have an IEP? I don't think its right that he should get penalized for being late if the lateness has something to do with PDD-NOS. If he has an IEP, perhaps you could get an accomodation that allows a little extra time after phys. ed. to get dressed and get himself organized.

He was diagnosed late in the school year last year. Long story why he wasn't assessed much earlier.
This is his first year with an IPP (our IEP). We met with the resource teacher for this school in June, she indicated that she would create the IPP and then meet with my son. I told her that as it was his first IPP I wanted to be there. She said that sometimes the student wanted to discuss things that they didn't want their parents to be aware of. I still indicated that according to the education act that I was entitled to be included in the process.
It is now November and I got an email from the resource teacher that she had met with my son and he was going to bring the IPP home and I was to sign and return by end of next week.
In reviewing it, it is very poorly done.
I worked very hard with the psychologist who diagnosed him in regards to accommodations for my son. Only three of them were included in the IPP (earphones, notes and increased time for tests).From the way it is written it would appear that the resource teachers have no awareness of ASD's. Also, there are two goals listed in the IPP - one is to get an 85% in one class - no indicaitons of how that is going to be achieved, the other is to improve the science mark and make an effort to write neater notes.
I have been researching IPP's/IEP's this evening and I will reinforce the accommodations that were given by the psychologist.
I never thought about the Phys. Ed aspect of changing as in the previous school he was in the teachers knew he took longer and had never made an issue of it. Lesson learned.

Last edited by websister on 12 Nov 2010, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DenvrDave
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07 Nov 2010, 12:52 am

That's a great list of accomodations! If I was in your situation, I'd do (almost) everything within my power to get them included in the IPP/IEP, plus a new one about extra time after phys. ed. Hang in there

momsparky
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07 Nov 2010, 8:23 am

psychohist wrote:

momsparky wrote:

I would make sure you point out to the principal that they are setting a bad precedent by punishing a child for telling the truth and accepting the blame for other people.

To be clear: the child in question did one thing wrong: light a lighter. Yes, this issue should be addressed, but it's a fairly minor infraction which in the real world would be smoothed over by his immediate admission and response. If it had been gum instead of a lighter, he'd have been asked to spit out the gum in the garbage and the issue would be closed, right?

The other kids were actually burning stuff with the lighters. They did not take responsibility for the more serious infraction. It sets a very bad precedent that a harsh punishment was given to the kid who took responsibility for what he did.

It also seems that this punishment is not really about the act of lighting the lighter, nor admitting to it, it's an attempt to force this child - a particularly vulnerable one - to describe what other people he has no control over were doing. It's not the child's responsibility to manage anyone in the classroom but himself.

DW_a_mom
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07 Nov 2010, 11:58 am

DenvrDave wrote:

About this:

websister wrote:

I totally forgot to address this piece, and I know the OP has responded a bit more, but this is the shorter post to quote and has the most relevant conversation.

This was a huge problem for my son last year, and several possible accommodations were discussed, but my son actually wasn't all that keen on most of them, because there can be a domino effect, and each accommodation would have led to a new issue to address (if he's allowed to be late, for example, how does he catch up on the the "do now" assignments he would be missing, and which are graded?).

So. For my son the largest piece of the problem was his shoes. Off and on again as he changed, and needing to be tied, which takes him horribly long. The solution we found was a bungee lacing system, sold for triathletes. Triathletes, after all, don't like to waste precious race time tying their shoes, and want good shoe performance at the same time. We actually bought them from an on-line triathlon store, figuring if any kids asked about them, it would help them pass the "cool" test.

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DW_a_mom
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07 Nov 2010, 12:04 pm

Aspie1 wrote:

Websister, your son may have mastered the NT rule of not snitching, which protects his social status with peers, although not necessarily with the administration. Forget them; they're more interested in protecting the school's reputation than the students' best interests. But your son forgot another NT rule: deny deny deny. In other words, do not give any school employee (or outsourced contractor) any information they don't already know. Instead, pick a story, get all the details straight, and stick with it no matter what. And don't try to explain it detail, because there's a risk of getting confused in one's own lies; plain old stubbornness is far better.

Let's look at your situation. The teacher saw, in her mind, "kids endangering the school by playing with lighters", or worse "attempting arson" (hey, teachers can get the craziest ideas in this post-9/11 world we live in). But she did not know which kids. So, she asked who had the lighter, because she did not see any specific student holding it. As unfortunate as it sounds, your son should have remained silent, because anything he said was used against him in the principal's office (a reference to the Miranda Warning). Your son should have just sat quietly, like his classmates did; coming forward did not do him any good. I would explain to your son that if he did not cause any injuries or property damage, and no one caught him in the act, he should not admit to anything. Because sadly, honesty does not reduce the punishment at school, and does undue damage to the student's permanent record.

This is all vastly different than if the teacher went to his desk and directly asked him: "did you have a lighter on you?", or actually caught him in the act of lighting a lighter. In that case, he should definitely the truth, because lying will make things worse. Instead, come forward and fess up, because even hardcore NTs will admit it in that case. When caught in the act, or not caught but having caused injuries or property damage, then telling the truth and showing remorse is a great sign of character. Encourage your son to exercise discretion is his honesty, because it today's world, it's not always the best policy, unless of course, you have a lawyer.

Before anyone slams for promoting dishonesty, ask yourself this. Let's say you ran a red light at an completely empty intersection because you spaced out, not deliberately. And then a cop stops you a few blocks later, but only for a burned-out brake light (he doesn't write a ticket for anything else). Would you tell him what happened at the intersection? Or would take the ticket you're getting, and consider yourself lucky he didn't catch you running a red light?

I won't slam the suggestion in the middle two paragraphs, just say that when I tried to split hairs that finely with my son after the incident last year, it just didn't work. He can't do that level of nuance.

The first paragraph you do basically suggest lying, and that I disagree with. Lying is an all or nothing thing with my son. Either he lies, or he doesn't lie. He has learned to use literal language to give the appearance of answering when he isn't answering, but in the world of pick your battles, I'll take a few instances of "in trouble with school but not with me" over letting him drop his internal rule against lying.

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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

DenvrDave
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07 Nov 2010, 4:47 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

...a bungee lacing system, sold for triathletes. Triathletes, after all, don't like to waste precious race time tying their shoes, and want good shoe performance at the same time. We actually bought them from an on-line triathlon store, figuring if any kids asked about them, it would help them pass the "cool" test.

Way cool idea

websister
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07 Nov 2010, 5:07 pm

I agree, the bungee lacing idea is a great one; you know my son
I will definitely be trying it and I will be working to ensure he gets his accommodations as recommended by the psychologist as well as a plea for a little leniency post phys. ed class.
My understanding is that he is not extremely late for the class, usually less than 5 minutes, this could make the difference.
I'm not sure if any of you have ever seen the autism card such as Dennis Debaudt created for his son, basically it lists typical behaviors of people with ASD's, talks about how to treat them in emergencies, how to interview if requiring interrogation etc.
I'm wondering if any of you have a similar card or letter on your child's file at school in case they end up in the principal's office. I'm considering providing one to the school.

Aspie1
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07 Nov 2010, 5:43 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

As bad as lying may be, it's a necessary evil in the modern school system. Hopefully, your son will catch on the nuances and make his life easier. Let me use a literary example to show what I mean.

My friend told me about a story he read as a child, back in Belarus. It's written in Russian, and set in the USSR in the 1940's. There's a scene where two boys lost a telegram that their father sent out from his research base in Siberia to the family home in Moscow. They decided that if their mother asks them about the telegram, they'll tell the whole truth. But if she doesn't say anything, they won't say anything. The story even talks about their logic behind it: it's not lying because they're not giving any false information, only not revealing something they were never prompted to reveal. I'm sure most American lawyers would agree.

I doubt there are copies of the story in English. But the story does a wonderful of showing something that was probably important in the Soviet political climate: don't tell anything you're not asked for. And sadly, we now gotta deal with the same thing in the supposedly free America. In the OP's case, the teacher only asked: "who had the lighter?" directed at no one specific, not "did you have the lighter?" directed at her son. If he stayed silent, he would have kept himself out of trouble, and/or the teacher would give up trying to find the culprits, since no serious injuries happened (burned hair is minor and fixable) and no property was damaged.

Sadly, these are the things aspies learn the hard way. Only time, awareness campaigns, and helpful forums like WrongPlanet can prevent innocent aspies from being dragged over the coals by the school system built by NTs, for NTs, and ran by NTs. With all that said, if an aspie confesses to something, it's only fair for him/her to get the same punishment as anyone else.

DenvrDave
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07 Nov 2010, 6:59 pm

websister wrote:

I'm not sure if any of you have ever seen the autism card such as Dennis Debaudt created for his son, basically it lists typical behaviors of people with ASD's, talks about how to treat them in emergencies, how to interview if requiring interrogation etc. I'm wondering if any of you have a similar card or letter on your child's file at school in case they end up in the principal's office. I'm considering providing one to the school.

I've not seen such a thing, but would love to see an example.

websister
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07 Nov 2010, 8:54 pm

This is a sample of what I was considering having them place on his file:

I HAVE PDD/NOS WHICH IS AN AUTISM SPECTRUM DISORDER SIMILAR TO ASPERGER’S SYNDROME
I WILL BE ANXIOUS IN NEW SITUATIONS OR WITH NEW PEOPLE. PLEASE READ THIS INFORMATION ABOUT HOW TO COMMUNICATE WITH ME AND HOW I COMMUNICATE WITH YOU.
BELOW ARE SOME COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF AUTISM AND ASPERGER SYNDROME AND SOME TIPS FOR YOU:

- USE CONCRETE, DIRECT LANGUAGE. I MAY TAKE YOUR EXPRESSIONS LITERALLY
- BE PATIENT. ALLOW ME SUFFICIENT TIME (10-15 SECONDS) TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS
- DON'T BE OFFENDED WHEN I REPEAT WHAT YOU SAY. THIS IS COMMON FOR PEOPLE WITH AUTISM AND ASPERGER SYNDROME
- I MAY TRY TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT OF CONVERSATION TO A TOPIC OF MY CHOICE
- I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTIONS OR COMMANDS
- MY GOOD VOCABULARY MAY GIVE YOU A FALSE IMPRESSION OF MY COMPREHENSION
-TRY TO DISPLAY CALM BODY LANGUAGE. I AM LIKELY TO MODEL YOUR BODY LANGUAGE
- I MAY AVOID EYE CONTACT. THIS IS COMMON AND MAY NOT MEAN I HAVE GUILTY KNOWLEDGE
- AVOID SLANG, JOKES OR SARCASM. I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND THEM
- I MAY MAKE UNINTENTIONAL SOCIALLY INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS OR GESTURES
- I MAY BE EXTREMELY SENSITIVE TO TOUCH, SOUNDS, LIGHTS OR OTHER SENSORY INPUT

REMEMBER THAT EACH INDIVIDUAL WITH AUTISM OR ASPERGER SYNDROME IS UNIQUE AND MAY ACT OR REACT DIFFERENTLY

INTERVIEWING A PERSON WITH PDD-NOS, AUTISM OR ASPERGER SYNDROME:

- MAY NOT UNDERSTAND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OR LEGAL WARNINGS
- MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY RECALLING RELEVANT FACTS OR DETAILS OF A SPECIFIC INCIDENT
- MAY BE CONFUSED BY STANDARD INTERVIEW OR INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES AND PRODUCE A MISLEADING STATEMENT OR FALSE CONFESSION
- MAY NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS

CONSIDER CONTACTING A PROFESSIONAL WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH AUTISM OR ASPERGER SYNDROME.
CALL THE FOLLOWING PROFESSIONAL –
(Debbaudt and Sheri, 2002)

psychohist
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07 Nov 2010, 10:50 pm

websister wrote:

I understood that, and I agree there's an element of unfairness in the situation. It's also true, however, that part of the reason the person that did use the ligher on hair has gotten away with it is because your son refused to describe the whole situation to the principal.

I am not convinced that the "don't snitch" rule works well for aspies. Aspies don't interact socially the same way that neurotypicals do; that changes the equation when it comes to things like this, that are done for solidarity with a social group. Neurotypicals protecting the group by not snitching benefit from the group's protection in return. Aspies typically are not protected by the group because the group does not consider them a part of it; that makes protecting the group less of a win.

When I was in school, I would not have hesitated to describe the whole situation, including who lit whose hair on fire; to me, it would have been a simple case of "honesty is the best policy" and it would not have occurred to me that it was "snitching". Unbeknownst to me, that actually worked well for me, as it seemed to put me in a different social group: socially, I ended up more as part of the social group of the teachers and administrators than as part of the students. That gave me far more protection that I would ever have gotten as a result of being part of the social group of students. I myself was clueless about all this, and indeed the whole idea of "social groups", of course.

Now, my schools may have been different from your son's schools, so what was right for me may not be what's right for him. However, it's also true that what's right for him may not be the same as what would be right for a neurotypical version of him.

Quote:

I'm not sure that I understand your comment .... OP's son may have to learn these rules one rule at a time?

OP = original poster = you. Neurotypicals somehow manage to intuit things like "lighting a fire is against the rules and will be punished" - as opposed to things which are not against the rules, or things which are against the rules but won't be punished because those rules aren't enforced much. Your son, being an aspie, isn't going to be able to intuit which rules count. The result is that he may have to learn rules like "don't light a fire in school" one by one as he gets punished for breaking them. It's unfortunate, but it comes with the territory of being an aspie.

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07 Nov 2010, 11:37 pm

So he did not have an epiphany after all and he was the honest, altruistic person that most people with AS are, and, as usual, he got in trouble for being an inherently good person.

Perhaps you should point this out to the school.

websister
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08 Nov 2010, 12:06 am

Update - the Science teacher called us at home this evening. Apparently he's been thinking about this all weekend and did some reading, looked at the assessment and accommodations for DS that I provided to the school from the diagnosing psychologist. He seemed to feel bad and said he realized our son didn't seem to understand what was going on, said he had a "deer in the headlights" look at the time and now he understands everything better. He asked how he could handle situations better in the future and said he would leave homework for him for the week in the office.

LittleMomOf3
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08 Nov 2010, 3:17 pm

websister wrote:

That is awesome.

Make sure you write a nice holiday card for that teacher! We find it hard for our ds's teachers (he's 15 too) to understand his personality. Even after a round table discussion. There's only that truly understands. Everyone else kept complaining about his inability to focus or keep focused or wanting to do the work. I was like, really? That's what all the accommodations are for, aren't you implementing them? So this science teacher seems to be understanding about your son's abilities. Perhaps he can be an ally in school for him and you.

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