Searching for long term relationships - is it Yea or Nay?

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southers91
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15 Nov 2010, 7:31 pm

I've been a member for just over a year now, occasionally browsing the forums 99% of the time looking for an answer to the same problem. However I think a weekend's trip away has just confused me even more about myself and life in general so hence I'm asking for people's opinions and comments.

Quick background; second year at UK uni, fast paced, productive, very ambitious, though I prefer to let my work do my talking. Diagnosed at 9/10yo. Never had a proper girlfriend. Still a virgin (and I do 100% know that I am the last one of our 76 person 6th form year to still be a virgin). And no I'm FAR from being religious in anyway.

Anyways, I went to stay at a friend's uni flat over the weekend, I wanted to go out with her at school but she said she preferred my friendship more. I have since come round to that way in thinking and we can be very blunt and very open on a number of topics, more importantly I can trust her. She's pretty, smart, a little shy sometimes, a decent person but again the important thing is I can trust her with anything that's on my mind. Likewise the other way round. I love her to bits like a sister but she's been led on by various people and the guy who's currently gunning for her is a complete waste of f*cking space. Even when drunk she said she knew she could do better, but then still proceeded to go sleep with him that night.

I'm not looking to go out with her still, I know our personalities could never gel over a long period of time. But my experience at hers once again slammed home my feeling of complete worthlessness in the eyes of other people as in terms relationships. Why is it that guys who are knobs attract women and walk all over them and yet guys like me who work hard to achieve our goals and ambitions get left on the shelf? And yet when a girl comes along they mess me around, upset me and just generally compound that low self esteem?

MAIN POINT:
Yes I know I'm only 19, yes I'm sure plenty of people are just going to repeat the same rhetoric of just wait and see. But is it me being a retarded sap by believing in love and trust that will always thwart me in my youth? OR is it generally an aspie thing searching for a stable and long-term companionship with someone? And is this why I appear less appealing than someone who does drugs and is a border-line alcoholic?

Apologies for the long intro. Hope to hear some comments soon.



billsmithglendale
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15 Nov 2010, 7:43 pm

Hi -- I'm one of the people who always repeats the "just wait and see" line, so I will spare you the same advice (though it's true!! !). Some of us remember how the "life sucks" stage of things seemed to end around a certain point, like age 21 or so, and from then, a lot more success with women.

That being said, yes, I so clearly remember that same source of frustration, of being good enough to talk to or to be someone's friend or pillow, but not good enough to be their lover or more. I also remember those same women, and others I was interested in at your age, going for complete tools.

Some points here --

Is it possible the guys aren't as bad as you think they are? If so, what are the exact reasons? Mild drug use (meaning pot or psychedelics) or drinking? I would be curious what specifically is so bad about this guy, and if so, how your friend justifies being with him. Have you ever asked her straight out to just be brutal and compare you to him, without any ulterior motive of you getting her? (make that clear first) Some constructive criticism from a disinterested party can really help. I was dressing horribly for years until I got set straight, and not everything can be done on your own or by your own judgment.

Also -- what do these guys talk about? Do they complain a lot, do they defer to other people a lot, or do they speak their mind and talk about generally happy or funny things?

Do they seem independent and self-directed? Do they seem to care much about what other people think?

Think of this as a thought exercise. It is possible that it is not they, but you, who is the problem, and I mean a problem to yourself. Are you in a negative state of mind? Can you get into a positive one? Will it help?

My last thought on this -- women want what they can't have. If you are all too willing, they are all too willing to look the other way.



Adam82
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15 Nov 2010, 8:21 pm

I'm still in the 'life sucks' stage, and I'm 28. But then, I've always been a bit socially behind my peers.

Having never been in any kind of relationship myself, I don't know what to say to the original poster. I do agree that decent, honest guys often get left on the shelf, whilst druggie abusive Neanderthals get women.

I am not sure that the desire for a long term, monogamous relationship is purely an Aspie trait. But it does seem that way. Many NTs to me just care about 'hook ups' (I hate that expression). In some ways, I get offended when people call me unemotional. I think I have much stronger emotions than most NTs I know, because mine are so internalised and concentrated.

I just want a long term relationship myself. It doesn't seem too much to ask for, does it?



happymusic
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15 Nov 2010, 8:34 pm

Quote:
But is it me being a retarded sap by believing in love and trust that will always thwart me in my youth?

No, I don't think this is a harmful way of thinking.

Quote:
OR is it generally an aspie thing searching for a stable and long-term companionship with someone?

I'm not sure.

Quote:
And is this why I appear less appealing than someone who does drugs and is a border-line alcoholic?

No, this is an attractive quality in a guy (the desire for a stable relationship, that is). She might find this other guy appealing for reasons you don't see, like maybe he has some physical appeal that blinds her to his faults. Also, if he's doing drugs and drinks, etc. he might come across to her as fun. It's not so much that most girls like guys who are bad or jerks as they like a guy who seems like a good time. Living fast can be very attractive. That said, there are clearly girls who do like jerks, but I think that's just a symptom of low self esteem, strong girls with good self esteem aren't going to lower their standards like that.

Responding here I was just thinking - girls with low esteem seem to attract jerks, but guys with low self esteem don't seem to attract anyone. You mentioned, sort of as an aside in your post, an issue with your own self esteem. Maybe that needs to be addressed first. Confidence in a guy is very attractive.



Adam82
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15 Nov 2010, 8:41 pm

happymusic wrote:
girls with low esteem seem to attract jerks, but guys with low self esteem don't seem to attract anyone.


True. This does seem to be the case. I am a guy with very low self esteem (got bullied at school, and had pushy parents). And I can't seem to attract anyone.



kruger4
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15 Nov 2010, 8:55 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
Hi -- I'm one of the people who always repeats the "just wait and see" line, so I will spare you the same advice (though it's true!! !). Some of us remember how the "life sucks" stage of things seemed to end around a certain point, like age 21 or so, and from then, a lot more success with women.


I'm interested in this.



lotusblossom
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16 Nov 2010, 4:13 am

At aspie meet ups Ive attended the turn off things about aspie men were

poor dental hygiene
poor bodily/ hair hygiene inc spilt food on face or facial hair
poor clothing hygiene or overly old fashioned clothes
goofy facial expressions and or grimaces
bitter or spiteful or harsh attitude
being overly keen or creepy (smothering a women with interest)
saying inapropriate compliments (dont go up to women and tell them they are beautiful)
rudeness to other people such as waitresses, beggars, stall holders, shop assistants.
rudeness to woman they are interested in

that is not to say that I dont do those things also, but that from a womans view of those guys (and women), I could see that those aspects would very much limit who would get romantically involved with them and its worth any aspies while, checking they dont do those things or self monitoring for those things (esp the grimaces and goofy expresssions as I think would be very off putting to NTs).



southers91
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16 Nov 2010, 4:30 am

billsmithglendale wrote:
Is it possible the guys aren't as bad as you think they are? If so, what are the exact reasons? Mild drug use (meaning pot or psychedelics) or drinking? I would be curious what specifically is so bad about this guy, and if so, how your friend justifies being with him. Have you ever asked her straight out to just be brutal and compare you to him, without any ulterior motive of you getting her? (make that clear first) Some constructive criticism from a disinterested party can really help.


Well to be honest any sort of illicit drug use I vehemently disagree with for a kick off, cannabis one day, cocaine mule the next. He can't go a day without getting himself drunk (he actually said that to my face while getting smashed), the weed was very pungent combined with heavy rolling eyes. I don't know whether that was the drink or cannabis but the weed smell was quite obvious. She's even expressed worry about 1. the fact he's not got over his ex and still gets with her 2. his violent outbursts (he punched a hole through a wall in his last house, hence he ended up staying in my mate's house for a while). That last point just on it's own would set alarm bells ringing.

billsmithglendale wrote:
Also -- what do these guys talk about? Do they complain a lot, do they defer to other people a lot, or do they speak their mind and talk about generally happy or funny things?


They only ever seemed amused when actually drunk. Didn't get a word out of them the next day.

billsmithglendale wrote:
Do they seem independent and self-directed? Do they seem to care much about what other people think?


Hell no! The place is an absolute shit-hole because they can't be bothered to actually implement the very basics in hygiene. In fact they actually play a game by where they'll try and make the place as horrible as possible so that the girls crack and do their clearing up for them.

billsmithglendale wrote:
Are you in a negative state of mind? Can you get into a positive one? Will it help?
and
happymusic wrote:
You mentioned, sort of as an aside in your post, an issue with your own self esteem. Maybe that needs to be addressed first. Confidence in a guy is very attractive.


In all honesty the whole love, relationships thing is the only thing that does get me down. Mostly because I see things like with my friend and people hurt me personally if and when I try. I'm an extremely driven person, always planning things way in advance and aim to go above and beyond any task given to me. I very much enjoy my course at uni, if you were to ask anyone from my uni they'd say I'm far from depressed. It's just that with striving for relationships there are so many millions of tiny factors that make or break something and when it does go wrong for me it gets horrifically messy. Hence I don't go out of my way to find a girl anymore, I just hope that my hardwork now pays off later in life. Though being a pragmatic person, that hope is a double edged sword and is equally galling. It's like I can make myself who I want in every other way but have to rest my love life on the whims of hope.



billsmithglendale
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16 Nov 2010, 12:05 pm

kruger4 wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
Hi -- I'm one of the people who always repeats the "just wait and see" line, so I will spare you the same advice (though it's true!! !). Some of us remember how the "life sucks" stage of things seemed to end around a certain point, like age 21 or so, and from then, a lot more success with women.


I'm interested in this.


Well, since you are interested, I will elaborate. I've posted about this a lot over the years, it's pretty much one of the only things I talk about here, and I don't post on the rest of the WP forums other than to offer advice RE: this topic.

Here's the short version --

As guys, the market demand for us is relatively low at the ages 22 and below. There are good reasons for this -- we're not making any money yet, we don't really have much to offer other than company, protection (maybe), and intimacy. And meanwhile our hormones are at their highest levels, meaning our libidos are also at their highest levels, pushing our own demand for the opposite sex.

Meanwhile, women, from about age 13 to 28, find themselves the center of attention, constantly in demand from men of all ages. So it's a seller's market, and they are the seller. At the ages of say 14-22, many women (but not all), especially the "pick of the litter"/most attractive ones, seem to choose the alpha males, the high school QB, the most popular guy, the guy with a good bod, etc. Not all girls are like this, and I did definitely get a GF and dates during this period, but for other guys, this is a very dry, depressing period. Many guys make the mistake of extrapolating from this that the rest of their lives will be as lonely and hopeless as it feels right then --- I know I did.

But, things change. Women start maturing, earlier than guys, and their goals do as well. They go from wanting the physically most impressive or most alpha guy, who is pretty much in demand constantly at this point and might cheat, to a normal guy who won't cheat on her, who has a good chance of getting a decent job, and who will be willing to settle down with one girl and have kids. This happens at any age, but usually at ages 22-28. Any woman doing this later than 28 is a late bloomer, for reasons I will list later.

So life definitely improves dramatically for most guys in their 20s, especially if they have been doing what they can to get educated, get a good job, and find personal stability and happiness. This is key -- you have to be a happy, non-hater person to really successfully get women. Nobody wants to be around someone miserable. So find hobbies if you don't have a GF, go see friends, get your degree, find a good job, and keep occupied.

Some final notes -- Women start getting very desperate around 27-28 if they don't have good leads on a guy who wants to get married. You have to understand that they are racing against a biological clock, and most want to get into childbearing by their early 30s. So you do the math -- if you are a woman at age 28, that gives you 2 years to find a husband, get married, have a year of just being married to make sure things are stable, and then get on with having kids. If you have 2 kids, and space them out by 2 years, that means you are 34 when you have your last kid. And that's starting at age 28!

So as a guy, you gain value as you get older -- you earn more money, have more savings, gain job experience, and life wisdom, and our society doesn't really have a problem with you dating younger than yourself. As a 30 year old guy, you can date a girl in college, a girl who is 25, a girl who is your age, or any age in-between. Women at age 28 don't have that dating power -- they will date around their age or above, but won't go younger for a serious relationship in 99% of the cases.



billsmithglendale
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16 Nov 2010, 1:16 pm

southers91 wrote:
Well to be honest any sort of illicit drug use I vehemently disagree with for a kick off, cannabis one day, cocaine mule the next. He can't go a day without getting himself drunk (he actually said that to my face while getting smashed), the weed was very pungent combined with heavy rolling eyes. I don't know whether that was the drink or cannabis but the weed smell was quite obvious. She's even expressed worry about 1. the fact he's not got over his ex and still gets with her 2. his violent outbursts (he punched a hole through a wall in his last house, hence he ended up staying in my mate's house for a while). That last point just on it's own would set alarm bells ringing.


Honestly, the anti-cannabis attitude is pretty old-fashioned and ill-informed - alcohol and tobacco use are far, far more harmful than cannabis, despite government propaganda to the contrary. Alcohol is ok in small amounts, but you do have to face reality that young people do and will take drugs, that's what is common at that age. Sad to say, if you don't adjust your attitude, people are not going to feel that relaxed around you. I ran into this myself, and now, looking back, I'm like "What was the big f*****g deal?" I smoke more cannabis now than I did then, drink less now than I did then, and am much happier. Tobacco is just complete poison though, stay away from that.

southers91 wrote:
In all honesty the whole love, relationships thing is the only thing that does get me down. Mostly because I see things like with my friend and people hurt me personally if and when I try. I'm an extremely driven person, always planning things way in advance and aim to go above and beyond any task given to me. I very much enjoy my course at uni, if you were to ask anyone from my uni they'd say I'm far from depressed. It's just that with striving for relationships there are so many millions of tiny factors that make or break something and when it does go wrong for me it gets horrifically messy. Hence I don't go out of my way to find a girl anymore, I just hope that my hardwork now pays off later in life. Though being a pragmatic person, that hope is a double edged sword and is equally galling. It's like I can make myself who I want in every other way but have to rest my love life on the whims of hope.


You sound a lot like me at that age -- everything else sort of coming easily, figured out how to do well at school, but this one area in life where things don't seem to progress. It is very hard for people who are goal-oriented and results-driven to wrap their head around the relationship problem, and how to solve it. The solution: meet as many women as you can. I don't mean go to pickup bars -- I mean join clubs, make friends, make social contacts, and from there, you will get a lot of results in terms of good leads.

Here's the main thing -- you need to work the numbers. Only a tiny % of women you meet will want you -- if you only meet 8 women a year, you cut your chances only to nothing. You need to be making as many contacts as you can. I can flesh this idea out for you, but this is the achievement-oriented guy's secret to relationship success.