The wealth of a nation is the citizens education.
02 Dec 2010, 8:26 am
Absurdist logic should have at least one well-formed leg to stand on.
"If the schools are closed nobody will learn to read".
Passing lightly over the fact that most of the worlds nations make paper money different sizes and colors so even the color blind do not need to read, and the fact that you can walk around the woods quite a while with no street signs and find your way back to the camp, you know as well as I do that reading is NOT dependent on schools, education either real or Cocoa Puffs is NOT dependent on schools, reading street signs is not being a reader AND - it does not take 12-13 years plus 2-4 years of undergraduate remedial study to learn to read a street sign.
The best lies and the best snooty sarcasm have a piecrust of truth.
02 Dec 2010, 8:32 am
Philologos wrote:
Absurdist logic should have at least one well-formed leg to stand on.
"If the schools are closed nobody will learn to read".
Passing lightly over the fact that most of the worlds nations make paper money different sizes and colors so even the color blind do not need to read, and the fact that you can walk around the woods quite a while with no street signs and find your way back to the camp, you know as well as I do that reading is NOT dependent on schools, education either real or Cocoa Puffs is NOT dependent on schools, reading street signs is not being a reader AND - it does not take 12-13 years plus 2-4 years of undergraduate remedial study to learn to read a street sign.
The best lies and the best snooty sarcasm have a piecrust of truth.
"If the schools are closed nobody will learn to read".
Passing lightly over the fact that most of the worlds nations make paper money different sizes and colors so even the color blind do not need to read, and the fact that you can walk around the woods quite a while with no street signs and find your way back to the camp, you know as well as I do that reading is NOT dependent on schools, education either real or Cocoa Puffs is NOT dependent on schools, reading street signs is not being a reader AND - it does not take 12-13 years plus 2-4 years of undergraduate remedial study to learn to read a street sign.
The best lies and the best snooty sarcasm have a piecrust of truth.
Since somewhere there is an indication that you teach in a college or university I am beginning to sympathize with the concept that higher education can really be malevolent.
02 Dec 2010, 8:45 am
The most important thing is the ability and will to self-educate.
Having good teachers and a good school only opens the door, but that's useless if the student doesn't apply himself. One has to be willing to put the necessary effort towards developing his own skills and talents instead of just relying on a teacher to magically download a wealth of info into his brain and do all of the work for him.
Lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.
Last edited by russell on 02 Dec 2010, 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
02 Dec 2010, 8:45 am
Sand wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Sand wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Most well known self made entrepreneurs either dropped out of college or never went. Education is merely a tool to make sure people act as robotically and sheepishly as possible. Those who do something better than the adverage path of getting a normal job have little to no need for it, as history tells us.
Therefor it would seem better to close all the schools and stop worrying about kids learning to read. If they can't read they can't get tangled up in the internet or texting or read advertising or street names. They cannot get driver's licenses and so eventually all the buses will stop running and we will have a much more peaceful world since they will never qualify for the armed forces. Great solution.
Nah, most people will still need education because most people want that normal life, but the few who want something more don't.
I'm referring to higher education (college and university), though, obviously not primary school.
So who's forcing you to go to college?
Who said anyone was?
02 Dec 2010, 8:50 am
Asp-Z wrote:
Most well known self made entrepreneurs either dropped out of college or never went. Education is merely a tool to make sure people act as robotically and sheepishly as possible. Those who do something better than the adverage path of getting a normal job have little to no need for it, as history tells us.
Entrepreneurs aften do drop out of college and are often the better for it. However, there are a number of fields where learning a standardized body of knowledge and practicing it under supervision are absolutely essential to society. Do you want to be operated on by a surgeon who dropped out of med school to do surgery his own way? Do you want to drive over a bridge built by a civil engineer who did the same? Mavericks have their place, but it is necessary that the bulk of people doing essential work also share essential knowledge.
02 Dec 2010, 8:51 am
Janissy wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Most well known self made entrepreneurs either dropped out of college or never went. Education is merely a tool to make sure people act as robotically and sheepishly as possible. Those who do something better than the adverage path of getting a normal job have little to no need for it, as history tells us.
Entrepreneurs aften do drop out of college and are often the better for it. However, there are a number of fields where learning a standardized body of knowledge and practicing it under supervision are absolutely essential to society. Do you want to be operated on by a surgeon who dropped out of med school to do surgery his own way? Do you want to drive over a bridge built by a civil engineer who did the same? Mavericks have their place, but it is necessary that the bulk of people doing essential work also share essential knowledge.
As I've said, if you want to just get a job and live a normal boring life, by all means go to college/university, but otherwise, it's not needed.
Last edited by Asp-Z on 02 Dec 2010, 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
02 Dec 2010, 9:01 am
russell wrote:
The most important thing is the ability and will to self-educate.
Having good teachers and a good school only opens the door, but that's useless if the student doesn't apply himself. One has to be willing to put the necessary effort towards developing his own skills and talents instead of just relying on a teacher to magically download a wealth of info into his brain and do all of the work for him.
Lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.
Having good teachers and a good school only opens the door, but that's useless if the student doesn't apply himself. One has to be willing to put the necessary effort towards developing his own skills and talents instead of just relying on a teacher to magically download a wealth of info into his brain and do all of the work for him.
Lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.
Teachers can't download knowledge, I agree. A person must be willing to actively engage in order to learn. However there is a limit to self-education. When you don't know a field, you really do need somebody to guide your learning and to supervise your fledgling efforts at trying out the new knowledge. I recently had my porch rebuilt by 3 carpenters. They diodn't just pick up books one day and practice in their basements until they felt confident they could build a safe porch. They went to trade school and after that they apprenticed with master carpenters who supervised them until they could be trusted to do the work on their own.
I also had my hand operated on for carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor didn't just buy an anatomy textbook and practice on computer simulations. He went to medical school. In that medical school, his head was stuffed with facts about the human body until the facts were bursting out his ears. He wasn't permitted to touch a scalpel until he had merely watched many operations. This is how it should be.
Self education has its' place in some things, but in other things it just doesn't.
02 Dec 2010, 9:03 am
Asp-Z wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Most well known self made entrepreneurs either dropped out of college or never went. Education is merely a tool to make sure people act as robotically and sheepishly as possible. Those who do something better than the adverage path of getting a normal job have little to no need for it, as history tells us.
Entrepreneurs aften do drop out of college and are often the better for it. However, there are a number of fields where learning a standardized body of knowledge and practicing it under supervision are absolutely essential to society. Do you want to be operated on by a surgeon who dropped out of med school to do surgery his own way? Do you want to drive over a bridge built by a civil engineer who did the same? Mavericks have their place, but it is necessary that the bulk of people doing essential work also share essential knowledge.
As I've said, if you want to just get a job and live a normal boring life, by all means go to college, but otherwise, it's not needed.
Where did "boring" come into it? Why are you assuming that every job a person can get that requires such education is boring?
02 Dec 2010, 9:05 am
Janissy wrote:
Where did "boring" come into it? Why are you assuming that every job a person can get that requires such education is boring?
That's merely my personal opinion, and it's not so much related to jobs themselves but the way of life where you work to make others rich while getting only a tiny share of the profits for yourself, as opposed to being an entrepreneur, in which case the profits are yours and you're making your own way forward instead of living in the illusion of team spirit offices try to push on employees - after all, if the HR manager won the lottery, they'd be very unlikely to give a crap about office morale.
02 Dec 2010, 9:26 am
Asp-Z wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Where did "boring" come into it? Why are you assuming that every job a person can get that requires such education is boring?
That's merely my personal opinion, and it's not so much related to jobs themselves but the way of life where you work to make others rich while getting only a tiny share of the profits for yourself, as opposed to being an entrepreneur, in which case the profits are yours and you're making your own way forward instead of living in the illusion of team spirit offices try to push on employees - after all, if the HR manager won the lottery, they'd be very unlikely to give a crap about office morale.
There seems to be some implication that the prime formula to become rich and successful is to drop out of college. A few statistics should be looked into.
02 Dec 2010, 9:33 am
Sand wrote:
There seems to be some implication that the prime formula to become rich and successful is to drop out of college. A few statistics should be looked into.
Well it makes sense since you go to uni to get qualifications and you don't need those if you're self-employed, do you?
But as for statistics:
Quote:
A survey conducted by Bloomberg in 2010 show that the school of hard knocks was the number one source (tied with the University of California) for CEOs of S&P 500 companies. Harvard was the #3 source (along with the universities of Texas, Missouri, and Wisconsin). The school of hard knocks features CEOs who never graduated from college.
Check this out: http://www.collegedropoutshalloffame.com/
02 Dec 2010, 9:40 am
"Since somewhere there is an indication that you teach in a college or university I am beginning to sympathize with the concept that higher education can really be malevolent."
I THINK there is a promotion there.
For the record, I DID lecture [how often teaching happened I cannot say] and research under the auspices of a "major" university - a few of them, in fact. These days I drudge pretty harmlessly, largely on my own recognizance.
While education in the wrong hands can be malevolent, modern North American education is well-intentioned but plain wronk. [I hope at least you appreciate Hyman Kaplan] Rather like Mr. Obama.
As for me - not malevolent mon ami. A voice crying in the wilderness, unrealistic, somewhat pigheaded, definitely pessimistic and from some standpoints wrongheaded. You are more than welcome to say wrongheaded. But wishing the youth of the land and the land itself nothing but good.
Not Socrates, by any means, but the same spirit.
[I understand Plato died in his 80s while attending a wedding, by the way.]
02 Dec 2010, 10:23 am
Philologos wrote:
"Since somewhere there is an indication that you teach in a college or university I am beginning to sympathize with the concept that higher education can really be malevolent."
I THINK there is a promotion there.
For the record, I DID lecture [how often teaching happened I cannot say] and research under the auspices of a "major" university - a few of them, in fact. These days I drudge pretty harmlessly, largely on my own recognizance.
While education in the wrong hands can be malevolent, modern North American education is well-intentioned but plain wronk. [I hope at least you appreciate Hyman Kaplan] Rather like Mr. Obama.
As for me - not malevolent mon ami. A voice crying in the wilderness, unrealistic, somewhat pigheaded, definitely pessimistic and from some standpoints wrongheaded. You are more than welcome to say wrongheaded. But wishing the youth of the land and the land itself nothing but good.
Not Socrates, by any means, but the same spirit.
[I understand Plato died in his 80s while attending a wedding, by the way.]
I THINK there is a promotion there.
For the record, I DID lecture [how often teaching happened I cannot say] and research under the auspices of a "major" university - a few of them, in fact. These days I drudge pretty harmlessly, largely on my own recognizance.
While education in the wrong hands can be malevolent, modern North American education is well-intentioned but plain wronk. [I hope at least you appreciate Hyman Kaplan] Rather like Mr. Obama.
As for me - not malevolent mon ami. A voice crying in the wilderness, unrealistic, somewhat pigheaded, definitely pessimistic and from some standpoints wrongheaded. You are more than welcome to say wrongheaded. But wishing the youth of the land and the land itself nothing but good.
Not Socrates, by any means, but the same spirit.
[I understand Plato died in his 80s while attending a wedding, by the way.]
Since I am in my 80's I shall avoid lethal weddings.
02 Dec 2010, 10:58 am
Janissy Wrote:
Quote:
Teachers can't download knowledge, I agree. A person must be willing to actively engage in order to learn. However there is a limit to self-education. When you don't know a field, you really do need somebody to guide your learning and to supervise your fledgling efforts at trying out the new knowledge. I recently had my porch rebuilt by 3 carpenters. They diodn't just pick up books one day and practice in their basements until they felt confident they could build a safe porch. They went to trade school and after that they apprenticed with master carpenters who supervised them until they could be trusted to do the work on their own.
I also had my hand operated on for carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor didn't just buy an anatomy textbook and practice on computer simulations. He went to medical school. In that medical school, his head was stuffed with facts about the human body until the facts were bursting out his ears. He wasn't permitted to touch a scalpel until he had merely watched many operations. This is how it should be.
Self education has its' place in some things, but in other things it just doesn't.
I also had my hand operated on for carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor didn't just buy an anatomy textbook and practice on computer simulations. He went to medical school. In that medical school, his head was stuffed with facts about the human body until the facts were bursting out his ears. He wasn't permitted to touch a scalpel until he had merely watched many operations. This is how it should be.
Self education has its' place in some things, but in other things it just doesn't.
^ I agree. I think self-education is just as important within the system.
A school and teachers just make the facts, skills, and qualifications accessable to the student. If the student is disinterested and unengaged in the program though, than he can sit in class all day for no purpose.
The student within a program has to be willing to study on his own time and apply himself towards mastering the material. To me, it seems too many students have an attitude of just "going through the motions," and just processing through to get a diploma.
Its a matter of being an entrepreneur within the system.
02 Dec 2010, 12:25 pm
russell wrote:
Janissy Wrote:
^ I agree. I think self-education is just as important within the system.
A school and teachers just make the facts, skills, and qualifications accessable to the student. If the student is disinterested and unengaged in the program though, than he can sit in class all day for no purpose.
The student within a program has to be willing to study on his own time and apply himself towards mastering the material. To me, it seems too many students have an attitude of just "going through the motions," and just processing through to get a diploma.
Its a matter of being an entrepreneur within the system.
Quote:
Teachers can't download knowledge, I agree. A person must be willing to actively engage in order to learn. However there is a limit to self-education. When you don't know a field, you really do need somebody to guide your learning and to supervise your fledgling efforts at trying out the new knowledge. I recently had my porch rebuilt by 3 carpenters. They diodn't just pick up books one day and practice in their basements until they felt confident they could build a safe porch. They went to trade school and after that they apprenticed with master carpenters who supervised them until they could be trusted to do the work on their own.
I also had my hand operated on for carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor didn't just buy an anatomy textbook and practice on computer simulations. He went to medical school. In that medical school, his head was stuffed with facts about the human body until the facts were bursting out his ears. He wasn't permitted to touch a scalpel until he had merely watched many operations. This is how it should be.
Self education has its' place in some things, but in other things it just doesn't.
I also had my hand operated on for carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor didn't just buy an anatomy textbook and practice on computer simulations. He went to medical school. In that medical school, his head was stuffed with facts about the human body until the facts were bursting out his ears. He wasn't permitted to touch a scalpel until he had merely watched many operations. This is how it should be.
Self education has its' place in some things, but in other things it just doesn't.
^ I agree. I think self-education is just as important within the system.
A school and teachers just make the facts, skills, and qualifications accessable to the student. If the student is disinterested and unengaged in the program though, than he can sit in class all day for no purpose.
The student within a program has to be willing to study on his own time and apply himself towards mastering the material. To me, it seems too many students have an attitude of just "going through the motions," and just processing through to get a diploma.
Its a matter of being an entrepreneur within the system.
Somehow the implications are that a standard education is useless and all except a few students are slackers and end up knowing nothing useful. The massive vague generalities abounding here are appalling..
02 Dec 2010, 8:21 pm
I am not sure that that was the implication - but I am not sure it is not true.
Standardization in education is useful and indeed requisite in some specific areas. I would prefer my brain surgeon not to be idiosyncratrcally selftrained.
But the educational content which all NEED in any sense is very slim, and the engineer and the sociologist require quite a bit outside any remotely likely standard core.
If I learned anything in a lifetime in higher education [golly, I hope I have], it is this:
Teachers do NOT teach. Teachers urge and facilitate learning.
A lot of students want to learn. A lot of students hangled the right way by the right teacher can be inspired to learn.
But no amount of education was going to get my sister to finish her course. Horse to water.
