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ediself
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03 Dec 2010, 4:06 am

jojobean wrote:
I still think that all this time NT's have been labeling others who are not the norm, that it is just poetic justice that they would be offended at being grouped together and labeled. I think that it is only fair if they label us as retarded or selfish or whatever that we have the leverage to call them NT's even if that bothers them.

i strongly agree with this. i know others will go all rethorical on me again, saying we should act and think better than they do, but sincerely, what if they object? i also object to being dismissed as incapable of being socially productive.



theexternvoid
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03 Dec 2010, 8:23 am

I would never call someone a Microsoft product. That's just low. :D



lelia
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03 Dec 2010, 12:48 pm

This is fun. Yes, one does need to be careful about using words in their dictionary sense and not understanding the cultural nimbus about the word. I have often said what I thought were neutral statements of fact only to find out I had greatly offended someone I loved, and needed to apologize. I'll apologize as much as I need to, for I realize that I am the one who misses the nuances.

Anyway, I shuddered at the use of the word dump for kids at daycare. It can be hazardous to use family terms. Dump implies that you don't like the kids and are dumping them like garbage.

Once, when I was at my sister's house looking for something in her kitchen to help her with, I said, "L....., where did you hide the ..........?" My husband looked at me and said that was an odd way to ask for the location of something. Not until then did I realize how that family phrase could sound insulting.



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03 Dec 2010, 12:58 pm

lostD wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
[
I once used the word "claim" at babycenter and it offended some women. Geez, isn't claim another way of saying "says?" I can say "she claims to have three kids" or "she says she has three kids." What is the difference?



With "claims" there is an implication that you didn't believe the claim. It's not there with "says", which is more neutral, although that can change depending on tone of voice.



I remember looking it up in the dictionary too and one of the definitions said "to state as a fact." So that made the situation even more confusing for me because I obviously used the word right. :?


As a foreigner, I have learnt this word with its negative connotation though I found it in other contexts where it clearly meant "state as a fact", but it always seem to mean that the statement has no justification therefore is not legitimate (i.e : you arrive on an island and claim it yours even though other people may already live there).

However, I tend to make the same mistake in my own language so I learn the way the words are used now, what they used to mean and their etymology (I have a strong interest in understanding language and communication), but still, there are many things you can't say now because people no longer seem to hear the same word.

Like : "I am fat." I said that once, when I was 10kg overweight, and everyone was like "no you are not fat, you are a little chubby." Well, stating that you or someone is fat (or skinny) is taken as an insult nowadays though the word in itself is neutral.

I did not know about ""I also should add", but languages are always changing because of the people who use it. In my language, "réaliser" means "to build" but now almost everyone uses it to say "to realise" and it's hard to understand somtimes.

I think we live in a word where more and more words are becoming insulting because people do not like to be reminded about their condition.

I mean, I've seen a lot of NTs (without any disorder because lots of people with learning difficulties don't consider themselves NTs, and schizophrenics sometimes insists on their label) calling themselves NT, they do not seem to take it badly at all, the other are not aware of this "label" and do not care.

It's just like Autistic people, they call themselves autistic even though some ignorant people uses this word to insult other people who are not autistic at all. :roll:

You know, "taking things literally" is a characteristic of Autism but when you look closely at the society, paranoia seems to become a norm since some people take everything as an insult no matter what the context is.



I find it so confusing it's impossible to avoid insulting people. Even NTs do it too unintentionally and they also use the wrong words too. When you go online, there are different cultures because people come from all over, not just in your area or on your side of the country. I guess locations now matter because it will help people from getting insulted because they will consider cultures.

Okay now what is the difference between NTs and aspies doing this? :?


Lelia, saying "Where did you hide the..." sounds like irony you used. You were using the word "hide" in a teasing manner meaning where did she put it or where does she keep it. That sentence sounds familiar. But it's not something I'd take offense too.


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lelia
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03 Dec 2010, 1:01 pm

Oh, another thing: To me it doesn't matter why someone finds a term offensive. If it's offensive to them I don't want to use it around them.

It's like the Washington Redskins which the team says is meant to honor Indians. They aren't honored. The team should get another name.



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03 Dec 2010, 1:08 pm

theexternvoid wrote:
I would never call someone a Microsoft product. That's just low. :D


/thread :lol:



lelia
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03 Dec 2010, 1:12 pm

League-Girl, you posted a second before I did.
You asked what is the difference between NT and aspies offending each other. There is no difference. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we all forgive each other and move on.
A daughter in law once told me she was not going to homeschool their sons because their father was socially retarded because of homeschooling. Their father was my son and I was the one who homeschooled him. She obviously had no idea how deeply that offended me as she went on about what type of school they were looking for. As she went on and on, I thought about her ADD and how we sometimes say out loud what we meant to only think and how I need to get along with her all my life, so I let it go.



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03 Dec 2010, 1:29 pm

if there is an NT (no offense intended) reading this thread, could you plz chime in on this and set strait weather this is offensive.


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Janissy
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03 Dec 2010, 1:51 pm

Titangeek wrote:
if there is an NT (no offense intended) reading this thread, could you plz chime in on this and set strait weather this is offensive.


I am NT and don't find the term offensive. If somebody says, "NTs are all so stupid" or "NTs are all so mean" then that's offensive (and it has been said in various threads) but it is the "stupid" and "mean" that are offensive, not "NT". But most of the time when people use the term it is just used to differentiate those on the autism spectrum from those not (except when semantics arguments break out and somebody says, "how is being bipolar 'typical'? Are they NT?" or something like that. Threads where somebody says "I'm AS but my brother is NT" or "why do NTs enjoy small talk?" are completely inoffensive.

What I find most interesting about this whole thread is the reason that the group leader (who is on the spectrum) gave for why it should not be used. He said that nobody wants to be considered "typical". It's a very revealing value judgement. Although "normal is boring" may be the motto of WrongPlanet (more or less), to many people (who have never heard the term "neurotypical" unless they have a family member on the spectrum or work in the field, and sometimes not even then), there is nothing inherently wrong with being a fairly typical member of a group. He assumes that NT/non-autistic people are offended if you say that they are similar in many ways to other people. But he's wrong. He's taken his own negative value judgement of "typical" and projected it on to NT people. It's the exact same projection error NT people make when assuming that a non-verbal autistic person is "trapped". Oh the irony.



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03 Dec 2010, 1:55 pm

I still think it doesn't matter whether someone is offended by the word "NT"/"neurotypical", or not.

It seems, a definition of a PDD would therefore mean there is a "typical" neurology which autism is being defined against. How else do you get to "disorder"? Or even difference if some prefer? A difference from what would be 'typical'.

Does the NT then prefer "normal"? I don't mind using the word "regular" or "normal" but what would bother me is "NT's" telling me that's what they are, and to call them that. This would seem like they are specifically trying to call others abnormal and to make it clear that they are the normal ones.



FunnyFaceKing
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04 Dec 2010, 12:49 am

Craig28 wrote:
Surely, he is stifling your free thought processes by dictating his stance on this term. That in itself is a form of abuse.


I love that sentence.

[Overheard at a Political Protest]: "Don't stifle my free thought process by dictating your stance on my terms man!"

Fight the power!


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DenvrDave
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04 Dec 2010, 12:59 am

Titangeek wrote:
if there is an NT (no offense intended) reading this thread, could you plz chime in on this and set strait weather this is offensive.


Not offensive. Thanks very much for asking :D

Caveat: IMHO, words are tools and you can choose to use a word offensively or not. So the caveat is, it depends on how the phrase "NT" is used and in what context. In general there is nothing offensive about the phrase "NT."



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04 Dec 2010, 1:01 am

There are plenty of groups who have words meaning "people who are not us". They can be used in a derogatory manner, but I don't think they are, by definition. "NT" is new to me, so I don't really use it myself. I do, however, refer to "normal" people, almost always in quotes, because, really, what is normal?

If being typical is so offensive, why does everyone seem to want to be like everyone else?



zweisamkeit
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04 Dec 2010, 1:05 am

when you are associating yourself with a group, you tend to think in terms of "us" and "them."
by saying neurotypical("them"), it puts a barrier between the 'typicals' and the 'non-typicals.'
Maybe the therapist would want you to identify with the qualities that you have, rather than what you don't have. its less negative, i suppose.



ediself
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04 Dec 2010, 5:53 am

i think the them/us thing is something that matters. and i don't view it as negative.
i was diagnosed late in life, all my childhood, teenage years and a small part of my adult life, i thought there was one big "us"and somehow, i couldn't fit in it, was not accepted in it.
As a result my life was turning into "them" vs "just me", and i thought there was something wrong with me for not fitting in their "us".
i had no idea that other "us"existed, the only little "us"i met were punks, and i sort of fitted in that until i grew up and they disappeared. there was no other adult "us"out there for me. I tried the lesbian "us"for a bit but i was not fitting in totally.
I tried the "i had a very traumatic childhood" "us" but that didn't define me entirely either.
i knew there was something basic in me that not only made me feel like i didn't belong in the NT us, but also made them think i shouldn't talk to them or something.
i had no idea that people with neurological differences identified as a "us", for some reason i was naive enough to think that everyone belonged in the big "us"and i was out of it, and i felt that i didn't deserve it, i didn't understand why they rejected me.
of course i had some resentment! i'm a social person in theory, i just couldn't stand the way they were socializing.
When you're a social person, being rejected by everyone is being denied a basic need.
Finding out where i belonged was a revelation.
Now there is a "us"for me, and i can identify the other "us"as being "them". and the fact that they are "them "is the reason i never fitted in with them. I work around it, I know how they work more or less enough to get basic respect from them, but i can't be asked to be reasonable enough not to exclude them from my representation of what "us"is. I gave up on them, basically, because it is not my job to make them feel even more comfortable than they already are....they're fine, really.