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Where do you stand on Wikileaks and Assange?
No idea, never heard of them. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Not sure, not been paying much attention to it. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Mildly interested, and pro-Wikileaks 19%  19%  [ 9 ]
Mildly interested, and anti-Wikileaks 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Very interested, and pro-Wikileaks 60%  60%  [ 29 ]
Very interested, and anti-Wikileaks 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Totally obsessed, :lol and pro-Wikileaks 8%  8%  [ 4 ]
Totally obsessed, and anti-Wikileaks 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 48

ouinon
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16 Dec 2010, 2:33 pm

A couple more links to excellent articles/blogs about the freedom of speech aspect of the Wikileaks case:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ric-holder

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-h ... 97436.html

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... index.html

I am very glad/relieved that Assange has been released on bail for the moment, because to have carried on holding him would have been unusually harsh for someone not even officially accused of anything yet, ( and would have therefore been very suspect in view of the threats/menaces which have been made against him in the USA by politicians and high ranking journalists, and the attempts being made by the USA govt to formulate some sort of charge to make against him ).

However I did want to say that I do not ( at the moment ) subscribe to the view held by some that the allegations of sexual misconduct in Sweden are necessarily untrue, trumped up and/or part of a "CIA honey-trap", nor that the Swedish govt is in cahoots with the USA over this. I think that it is quite possible that Assange may have been guilty of some misconduct, and would like to see the allegations dealt with in fair trial, proper questioning/due process etc.

But, as Johann Hari said in his article; http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 54109.html , I don't think that the investigation into that behaviour, or any future charges/trial of that conduct, should deflect from the issue of freedom of speech and Wikileaks, nor should it excuse or serve as justification for or "hook" for imprisoning Assange, nor maligning or dismissing the work of Wikileaks.
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16 Dec 2010, 8:04 pm

Assange fans, check it. This is genius.

http://anonops.blogspot.com/2010/12/fre ... peech.html


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jamieboy
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16 Dec 2010, 9:07 pm

I'm pro and i'm mad and sad about it. It's a total outrage the way wikileaks have been treated. What depresses me most is the fact that we humans keep electing these awful governments and this shines a light on that fact. Oh man it's hard not to be a misanthrope. I want to change the world but s**t like this scares and intimidates me.

Just have to keep hoping that the good will out i guess.



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16 Dec 2010, 11:59 pm

much of the rest of the world sees the wikileaks saga as just the chickens finally coming home to roost for a nation of clueless yanks lorded over by masters of propaganda.



ouinon
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17 Dec 2010, 9:17 am

I'm beginning to see what people mean about this ( Swedish extradition order ) being a set-up, ( not the original situation with the two women, perhaps, but the legal follow up ). I just found this posted on slash.dot.org forums:

Quote:
Letter [ allegedly ] from Swedish Counsel Bjorn Hurtig to English co-Counsel for Julian Assange.

Note Neither Mr. Assange nor Counsel, nor WikiLeaks have ever received a single written word, at any time, in any form, from Swedish authorities on the Swedish investigation against our editor.

From: Björn Hurtig
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:43 PM
To: Jennifer
Subject: SV: Our client

Dear Jennifer,

Enclosed You will find a copy of the documents that I have would like to send to the prosecutor. I have not been able to have the document translated in detail, but I will now tell you the most important things in it.

First of all I comment the ongoing investigation and tell the prosecutor that I have asked her several times that they should hear my client so that we can be aware of the accusations. They have said no to this initially (and by this I mean for several weeks). Furthermore I remind her that I several times have asked her to give me the evidence in the case. She has said no to this also. I then tell her that I have asked my questions informally and in writing and tell her about a formal request that I made 14 of September 2010. This formal request has not yet been formally answered, which I find to be a breach of Swedish law (23:18 Rättegångsbalken). I also tell her that Sweden has not followed art 6:3 of The European Convention of the 4 november 1950, because Julian has not been informed of the accusation in detail and in his own language. Neither has he been informed of the documents in the case in his own language. This is an incorrect behavior.

I then tell her that Julian is indeed willing to participate in a hearing. But I remind her that I asked her in writing (14 of September) if he was free to leave Sweden for doing business in other countries and that she called me and said that he was free to leave. This is important because it means that Julian has not left Sweden in trying to escape the Swedish justice. Then I remind her that Julian and I several times have tried to give them dates when he could come to Sweden and participate in a hearing, for example I spoke to the second prosecutor Erika Leijnefors during week nr 40 and told her that Julian could participate in a hearing the 10 of October (a Sunday) or some day the following week. The prosecutor in charge (Marianne Ny) said no to this. Other times Marianne Ny has said no to our proposals due to that one of her policeofficers were sick or because the time did not suit her. This is also important because it shows that Julian has tried but Marianne Ny has said no. I go on remembering her that Julian has suggested that he could participate over a phone line and from an Australian Embassy. She has said not to this also. Then I tell her that Julian is willing to participate through a video conference or to make a written statement over the accusation and the questions they may have. This is of utmost importance, since it shows his willingness to participate. I remind her of a ruling from our Highest Court; NJA 2007 s.337, in which the court did not put a man in custody although he was abroad and did not come to Sweden to participate in a hearing. It was not proportional to do such a thing, since he left Sweden rightfully (just like Julian) and thus did not try to escape the Swedish justice, he was willing to participate via phone or in writing and so forth.

In the second last section of the letter I tell the prosecutor that she should think of the damage that Sweden already has done to Julian by letting his name in public. I tell her that I have heard that there is a police investigation going on about the first prosecutor who let Julian's name out in public, which shows that it is a serious matter. If the prosecutor now goes forward with a request of Julian being put in custody it is my opinion that the damage could be enormous; whatever ... ... ... [ and here the poster ran out of comment space? because the rest is missing ] ... ... ...
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It does indeed look exceedingly fishy. :(
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ruemorgueave
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17 Dec 2010, 3:43 pm

I don't think some of the information released has been helpful, especially with regards to diplomatic wires leaked from U.S. embassies. But the information that changed Kenyan elections in 2007, the information on friendly fire and collateral damage by U.S. forces, and the information on Albanian oil spills are some examples of things the world public should and needed to know about. I think it's helpful that apparently the New York Times, Der Spiegel, The Guardian, and other newspapers are now advising Wikileaks operators on the information they decide to release. Assange is just a figurehead in this: he ISN'T Wikileaks, but he's an acceptable fall guy it seems.



ascan
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17 Dec 2010, 4:05 pm

jamieboy wrote:
... I want to change the world but sh** like this scares and intimidates me...

So it should. Espionage is not a game. If someone enters into that kind of activity they should understand that the consequences are likely to be life changing at a minimum, and more likely than not life-ending



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17 Dec 2010, 7:11 pm

ascan wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
... I want to change the world but sh** like this scares and intimidates me...

So it should. Espionage is not a game. If someone enters into that kind of activity they should understand that the consequences are likely to be life changing at a minimum, and more likely than not life-ending


Not you again! Well i might be intimidated by bullies and torturers but luckily for me and unluckily for you and the criminals in power, there are thousands of people who are not. John Pilger and Julian Assange to name but two.



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17 Dec 2010, 9:07 pm

ascan wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
... I want to change the world but sh** like this scares and intimidates me...

So it should. Espionage is not a game. If someone enters into that kind of activity they should understand that the consequences are likely to be life changing at a minimum, and more likely than not life-ending


If Assange is engaged in espionage then so is every investigative journalist who ever put pen to paper. Besides which, the US is a bully. If you don't stand up to Bullies, they just hit you harder.


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17 Dec 2010, 11:01 pm

Macbeth wrote:
If Assange is engaged in espionage then so is every investigative journalist who ever put pen to paper. Besides which, the US is a bully. If you don't stand up to Bullies, they just hit you harder.
Ditto.



ouinon
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18 Dec 2010, 3:18 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BH0HF20101218

Reuters wrote:
"Bank of America says Cut Off Wikileaks!" Dec 18 (Reuters) - Bank of America was quoted as saying late on Friday that it was joining other financial institutions in declining to process payments to WikiLeaks, which has angered U.S. authorities with the mass release of U.S. diplomatic cables.

"Bank of America joins in the actions previously announced by MasterCard, PayPal, Visa Europe and others and will not process transactions of any type that we have reason to believe are intended for WikiLeaks," the bank said in a statement, quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.

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ascan
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18 Dec 2010, 4:06 am

Macbeth wrote:
ascan wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
... I want to change the world but sh** like this scares and intimidates me...

So it should. Espionage is not a game. If someone enters into that kind of activity they should understand that the consequences are likely to be life changing at a minimum, and more likely than not life-ending


If Assange is engaged in espionage then so is every investigative journalist who ever put pen to paper. Besides which, the US is a bully. If you don't stand up to Bullies, they just hit you harder.

Obtaining vast quantities of confidential US material for political gain clearly doesn't stretch the definition of "espionage" too far, Macbeth. If he'd done this to China or Russia he'd most likely be dead by now, so I find the US reaction somewhat restrained at present. What I find shocking is how many US liberals here think that a man who's caused massive damage to the credibility of their country is some kind of hero. Even that Europeans should think the same is worrying. The US may not be a particularly pleasant entity, but it does share much in common with us in Europe, and its strength and stability is conducive to our wellbeing. I'd be the first to object when they stick their nose into our affairs, but this Assange business is a direct attack on them by someone who is not a British citizen.

I'd add that all this limp-wristed liberal sympathy and the shock expressed -- born of naivety, and a soft western upbringing-- over what governments actually get up to doesn't bode well for our future. The idealistic 21st century mores of liberals and leftists are the seeds of our destruction.



ouinon
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18 Dec 2010, 4:47 am

http://en.rsf.org/open-letter-to-presid ... 39075.html

Reporters_Sans_Frontiers wrote:
Dear President Obama and Attorney General Holder,

Reporters Without Borders, an international press freedom organization, would like to share with you its concern about reports that the Department of Justice is preparing a possible criminal prosecution against Julian Assange and other people who work at WikiLeaks.

We regard the publication of classified information by WikiLeaks and five associated newspapers as a journalistic activity protected by the First Amendment. Prosecuting WikiLeaks’ founders and other people linked to the website would seriously damage media freedom in the United States and impede the work of journalists who cover sensitive subjects.

It would also weaken the US and the international community efforts at protecting human rights, providing governments with poor press freedom records a ready-made excuse to justify censorship and retributive judicial campaigns against civil society and the media.

We believe the United States credibility as a leading proponent of freedom of expression is at stake, and that any arbitrary prosecution of WikiLeaks for receiving and publishing sensitive documents would inevitably create a dangerous precedent.


Members of the faculty at the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism wrote to you recently warning that “government overreaction to publication of leaked material in the press has always been more damaging to American democracy than the leaks themselves.” We fully agree with this analysis.

The ability to publish confidential documents is a necessary safeguard against government over-classification. We urge you to use this debate to review the government’s policy of classifying documents in order to increase transparency in accordance with the promises made by the administration when it first assumed office.

We thank you both in advance for the attention you give to our observations.

Sincerely,

Jean-François Julliard Secretary-General

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18 Dec 2010, 5:02 am

Moog wrote:
Assange fans, check it. This is genius.

http://anonops.blogspot.com/2010/12/fre ... peech.html


That is AWESOME! :D



ouinon
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18 Dec 2010, 6:19 am

Article in the Guardian last night ( 21.30 GMT ) about the original allegations of sexual misconduct/abuse, with extra reports from witnesses, swedish counsel, etc which does make it look as if Assange's British lawyer ( at least ), may not be entirely reliable because there is a significant difference between his accounts of Assange's behaviour with respect to the Swedish authorities, and what actually appears to have happened.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/de ... nge-sweden

Am now inclined to think that Assange should go back to Sweden and answer questions.
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18 Dec 2010, 11:41 am

ascan wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
ascan wrote:
jamieboy wrote:
... I want to change the world but sh** like this scares and intimidates me...

So it should. Espionage is not a game. If someone enters into that kind of activity they should understand that the consequences are likely to be life changing at a minimum, and more likely than not life-ending


If Assange is engaged in espionage then so is every investigative journalist who ever put pen to paper. Besides which, the US is a bully. If you don't stand up to Bullies, they just hit you harder.

Obtaining vast quantities of confidential US material for political gain clearly doesn't stretch the definition of "espionage" too far, Macbeth. If he'd done this to China or Russia he'd most likely be dead by now, so I find the US reaction somewhat restrained at present. What I find shocking is how many US liberals here think that a man who's caused massive damage to the credibility of their country is some kind of hero. Even that Europeans should think the same is worrying. The US may not be a particularly pleasant entity, but it does share much in common with us in Europe, and its strength and stability is conducive to our wellbeing. I'd be the first to object when they stick their nose into our affairs, but this Assange business is a direct attack on them by someone who is not a British citizen.

I'd add that all this limp-wristed liberal sympathy and the shock expressed -- born of naivety, and a soft western upbringing-- over what governments actually get up to doesn't bode well for our future. The idealistic 21st century mores of liberals and leftists are the seeds of our destruction.


Given how the leaked data suggests that our deal old buddies over the pond DON'T care a fig about us, and care even less about the rest of Europe except as a buffer zone for whoever they have fallen out with this week, and how much of history in general supports that the majority of Americans couldn't care less about Europe, I find it hard to see us sharing much in common. Europe is nothing more than a convenient battle-ground so that America doesn't have to get its soil dirty. Our reliance on its strength and stability was predominantly caused BY underhanded American foreign policy with a deliberate aim to reduce European power whilst increasing their own, in collusion with weakened European governments hungry for American money, built on top of deliberately wasteful American military strategy purposed to those same ends. I put it to you that the American leadership views the UK as nothing more than convenient meat-shields, and an extra vote at the UN, and a great swathe of the American public still views us as little more than vengeful redcoats and tea-drinking Imperialists.

American credibility is being undermined not by Assange or Manning or the leaks, but the very fact that they are so incredibly useless at protecting secret information, and that their diplomats are so un-diplomatic. The credibility of governments in general is undermined by their activities, and they are further undermining their own credibility with their reactions to such leaks.

I also think you are mistaking a sense of disgust and distaste for "shock". People are not "shocked" that America is a vast bag of BS that rides rough-shod over international law and displays a cavalier attitude to truth or justice. They are reviled and disgusted and outraged at the sheer hypocrisy of the Land of the Free.

Which is why, although it might be the case that China or Russia tend to respond more violently and directly to what they perceive as threats, they are clearly under no illusions that anyone in the world thinks they are cute cuddly fluffy lovely places to live. They don't advertise themselves as champions of free speech and rights, and on the odd occasion they try, nobody believes it for a minute.

Also, exactly who do you think is threatening the UK that isn't doing it because we keep supporting America in its illegal and pointless wars? (Ruyven somewhere referred to it as The Forever War, with due credit to Joe Haldemann. Spot on description.) We are MORE than capable of defending ourselves against ANY of the "axis of evil" (mostly because they lack the ability to reach us) and we would be capable of facing any of them down again if our government stopped making ridiculous decisions about our navy, cutting it down to two dinghies and a well-thrown rock. We wouldn't HAVE to face them if not for us being linked to the US. Frankly, the further removed we are from that shower of duplicitous tossers, the better.

May the leaks continue.


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