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ruveyn
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17 Dec 2010, 10:09 pm

Pandora_Box wrote:
In an ideal world there would be altruism.

In the real world there is no such thing as true altruism.




Selfishness (within limits) is a survival characteristic. If humans were completely altruistic our species would have become extinct long ago.

ruveyn



wblastyn
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17 Dec 2010, 10:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Pandora_Box wrote:
In an ideal world there would be altruism.

In the real world there is no such thing as true altruism.




Selfishness (within limits) is a survival characteristic. If humans were completely altruistic our species would have become extinct long ago.

ruveyn

I agree that selfishness is an evolutionary advantage, but humans circumvent evolution all the time - wearing glasses, protecting the "unfit" and medicine.



pineapple
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17 Dec 2010, 10:31 pm

I'm the same way, morally outraged about everything. Is it good or bad? Well, I don't think it's that simple. I think it's hard, above all else. It's a difficult way to be, but if I suddenly started accepting everything as "how it is", I would be a different person. Having a minority opinion doesn't make you automatically wrong.



marshall
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17 Dec 2010, 10:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Pandora_Box wrote:
In an ideal world there would be altruism.

In the real world there is no such thing as true altruism.




Selfishness (within limits) is a survival characteristic. If humans were completely altruistic our species would have become extinct long ago.

ruveyn


If we were all 100% selfish we would go extinct as well.



marshall
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17 Dec 2010, 11:03 pm

It seems that NT's, for all their supposedly superior empathy, base their moral actions more on social norms (i.e. what they can get away with without being ostracized or made to feel guilty by their peers) rather than on considerations of fairness or harm/benefit analysis. If society accepts something, the average NT person will accept it regardless of unfairness or harmfulness.



Jediscraps
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17 Dec 2010, 11:48 pm

I think I agree with Marshall above but I'm not sure concerning the NT/ASD dichotomy. Except maybe the ASD person has none, or less, group solidarity and possibly may have a tendency to apply universal values or principles (I have no idea, really).

I think humans have a group solidarity where they tend toward a golden rule type of behavior within the group they identify with. So, for those outside of their group they may treat somewhat equally, maybe a little less equally or, treat them as non-human and kill or even eat those outside the group they identify with.

I think I relate to the original poster and I fixate on these things quite a bit and I'm not sure I have much to show for it. These thoughts on injustice dominate my mind for things both in my personal life and also concerning the institutional structure of the world, so much that it has been overwhelming for me. I feel like I'm stuck in 'their' belief system, I don't relate to the way this world is.



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18 Dec 2010, 12:41 am

I get plenty annoyed at stuff like this too.

For the driving in the snow thing, if you live in the U.S., you're supposed to dedicate your life to working 40+ hours a week. You must risk life and limb in order to "prove" you are worthy of a paycheck. You must buy thousands of dollars of worthless crap in the name of consumerism and the economy and spend every waking hour working in pursuit of profit. If you don't, you're not worthy of even the slightest morsel of food, let alone shelter or healthcare. If your job isn't paramount in your life, then you're a worthless bum who deserves to starve. Go ahead and wreck your car in the snow because at least you'll die for a noble cause: money! Welcome to Capitalism. Rant over.

As for the eggs, I've seen such things. This is yet another example of one person's willingness to screw over other human beings in the name of making a few bucks.

Humans are a pretty crappy lot. I've often thought I either have to find a new planet, or at least a new country where people aren't as accepting of social Darwinism.

--XFG


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Last edited by XFilesGeek on 18 Dec 2010, 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

pineapple
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18 Dec 2010, 12:47 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
For the driving in the snow thing, if you live in the U.S., you're supposed to dedicate your life to working 40+ hours a week. You must risk life and limb in order to "prove" you are worthy of a paycheck. You must buy thousands of dollars of worthless crap in the name of consumerism and the economy and spend every waking hour working in pursuit of profit. If you don't, you're not worthy of even the slightest morsel of food, let alone shelter or healthcare. If your job isn't paramount in your life, then you're a worthless bum who deserves to starve. Go ahead and wreck your car in the snow because at least you'll die for a noble cause: money! Welcome to Capitalism. Rant over.
--XFG


My thoughts exactly. Sigh...



wblastyn
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18 Dec 2010, 9:28 am

marshall wrote:
It seems that NT's, for all their supposedly superior empathy, base their moral actions more on social norms (i.e. what they can get away with without being ostracized or made to feel guilty by their peers) rather than on considerations of fairness or harm/benefit analysis. If society accepts something, the average NT person will accept it regardless of unfairness or harmfulness.

Agreed. In some social circles, especially teenagers, it is perfectly acceptable to be homophobic, but if I said something racist to them (not that I would) I would be ostracised. Even though they are derived from the same thing - prejudice and bigotry. This suggests these rules are based on what is socially acceptable, not what is morally right.



EnglishLulu
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19 Dec 2010, 2:25 am

wblastyn wrote:
Does anyone else ever get morally outraged at things other people don't care about?

Like today, it was snowing really heavily and I didn't want to risk going into work. I didn't want to get stuck in the snow and maybe have to walk home late at night, as it may not be safe. So I phoned in and was told I should come in because people have come to work from miles away, etc. Well that's all well and good for them, but just because they were willing to risk skidding and crashing their car, or getting stranded, doesn't mean the rest of us should. Also, I didn't want to risk getting attacked while walking home at night. But she told me to try all options to get into work. So in the end I managed to make it in, to avoid confrontation, and got home safely. But I was angry all day because it felt as though the manager cared more about the company making money than my well-being.

Then there was another incident where my manager tried to sell eggs that had been contaminated with mouse droppings.
Yes.

But then again, if you work in a grocery store, what happens if too few of the staff turn up for their shifts and that means the store can't operate and customers who need groceries to eat can't buy them? I know if I'd run out of groceries and if my local store was closed because the staff hadn't made the effort to get to work I'd feel pretty peeved. Maybe your boss was also concerned about wanting to provide a service for the customers? I know, I know, how naive and optimistic of me! :lol: Especially given that next sentence. Ew! 8O

wblastyn wrote:
Amongst other things I get angry at all the injustice, etc that goes on in the world, and how selfish and generally stupid a lot of people are.

When I told people about these things they kinda shrug it off and more or less said "that's how things are". So it makes me think it must be wrong to worry or be angry about things like this, but I can't seem to help it.

Although, maybe being morally outraged at some things can be a good thing. Afterall, if everyone just shrugged and accepted how things are we would still have slavery, etc. But perhaps the things I get annoyed with are silly, but I don't know how to stop being annoyed...
Me too. I get really wound up by injustice. I'm outraged by politicians in my country, bailing out the banks, failing to reign in the worst excesses of the financial and corporate sectors and then making poor and disabled people pay the price. It's disgusting. I think it's immoral and I'm outraged. :evil:

And I get morally outraged by discrimination, inequality, the gap between rich and poor and how obscene it is that some people have billions of pounds, more money than they can spend in their lifetimes, and yet children starve to death on this planet.

And I find it morally outrageous that a country that spends billions of dollars on weapons and waging war denies funding for a life-saving heart transplant for a father: http://www.channel4.com/news/transplant ... tal-organs

That angers and saddens me in equal measure, that politicians have so little humanity that they would create that kind of situation.