fight for truth: fight simon baron-cohen

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nostromo
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31 Dec 2010, 3:09 pm

I really like your paintings anbuend



AspergianSuperstar
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31 Dec 2010, 5:17 pm

Aimless wrote:
He describes "empathy" this way and doesn't limit it to a simple matter of not caring about people.
Britannica: How might empathy difficulties manifest in social situations?

Baron-Cohen: Empathy difficulties are a parsimonious way of explaining a huge range of atypical behavior, and these include talking too loudly, standing too closely, dominating in a conversation, being disinterested in other viewpoints, trying to control others, not understanding others’ intentions or motives or body language, saying inappropriate things (faux pas), being unaware of how others see you or think about you, being disinterested in conformity, not attending to others’ faces, or not responding to hints.

From an interview here:
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2010/12 ... ron-cohen/


Does he actually know what Empathy is? Seems a bit full of himself this simon person. Forexample where does talking too loudly fit into empathy? It just doesn't



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31 Dec 2010, 6:46 pm

antonblock wrote:
Dear,

i really annoys me and hurts me how much nonsense is written still about autistic people. That they have no feelings and that they are not social, just want to sit in front of their computer and so on.

And i also hate people like simon baron-cohen and his "extreme male brain" theory. I feel much more deeply than most woman, and there comes this stupid wannabe-researcher and gets famous by producing a theory according to which autistic don't feel, because they are so extremely male.

This is not only nonsense, this tells other people lies about what and how we are, and there people again hurt us. I don't want this! Why don't any autistic people meet together and try to effectively complain about this nonsense and fight for a better world for them?

bye,
anton


i think the extreme male brain theory, whether one subscribes to it or not, has more to do with systemizing than lacking any feelings.


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31 Dec 2010, 6:59 pm

Millstone wrote:
There is no crap to do "something" against. 2/3rds of autistic or AS people have an extreme-male brain. That doesn't sound like a claim I have any evidence against. Perhaps you fall into the remaining 1/3rd.


I believe that to define brains as "extreme male" one needs a coherent definition of "extreme male." As has been pointed out in this thread, Baron-Cohen does not have such a definition. He has a selection of traits he has chosen to define as male.



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01 Jan 2011, 4:38 am

rdos wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
The coorelations between AQ and SQ and EQ are not a sign of poor science, to me the best type of science is where a hypothesis is tested. I am sure that in some of SBCs papers he has tested the hypothesis that "a coorelation exists between AQ and SQ scores". While it might be the case that SBC's three scales (AQ, EQ and SQ) might form useful research and diagnostic tools they do not clearly indicate the origins or causes of autism.


Maybe SBC was not originally aware of the fact that core ASC traits are correlated to most of human diversity, but today he must be, or he is simply a poor researcher.

And when a test/diagnosis does not indicate some cause, it seems to be poorly defined. At least if further research cannot indicate any cause either.

To see what I mean about most of human diversity being related to core ASC-traits study figure 1 in the Aspie-quiz paper (Aspie-quiz paper).


I would disagree with the idea that a test which does not indicate the cause of a condition being poorly defined. If we consider for a moment cancer, a series of tests and observations can be used to diagnose cancer. For example by examination of the breasts with the hands lumps can be found, these lumps can also be seen using ultrasound or X-ray equipment. For a definative diagnosis of breast cancer a tissue sample can be taken from the lump and examined by a pathologist.

The thing is that cancer tissue can for many forms of the condition be seen under the microscope to look different to a healthy tissue sample (which is the basis of some very effective tests) but the difference in the appearance of the cancer and healthy tissues does not normally allow the mechanism by which the cancer appeared to be determined. The same could be said for the blood tests which can be used to diagnose a diabetic, the observation of high blood glucose might indicate the disease but it does not explain how a failure to create insulin is causing the condition.

In the same way if the three scales of SBC are unable to give us an insight into the origin of autism it might be a shame and a disappointment to some people but it does not make the three scales any less valid as diagnostic tools.

By the way the blue/green anbuend painting looks good to me and I like that one. The red one is technically good but I like it less than the blue one. Has anbuend posted any more of her art on the web ?


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01 Jan 2011, 6:12 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Truth be told, anybody can define "autism" in whatever arbitrary fashion they wish, and it's up to the researcher to decide what s/he believes to be the core "necessary" feature of "autism." In SBC's world, he seems to regard "empathy" verses "systemizing" as what separates the autistic from the non-autistic.


Yes, exactly.

XFilesGeek wrote:
Personally, SBC has very little to do with me. I'm an artist, an English major, and a non-empathetic social retard in one big package.


Yes, it has very little to do with me as well, even if I have a scientific background. I prefer to use intuition over logic, and I hate abstract math.



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01 Jan 2011, 6:22 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
People think of it as an increase in logical thinking skills at the expense of others.


I think this is a misunderstanding of autism.

First, the problems with empathy is not based in lacking feelings or being psychopathic. It is based in the inability to interpret facial expressions and nonverbal communication. All of SBCs questions about empathy (that have any relevance) are based on this, not lacking empathy.

Second, logic comes in as a way to compensate for the inability to understand nonverbal communication, and instead learning the logic behind social rules. Some autistics have a good ability to use logic for this, and in the course of training, actually acquires superior logic to many other people. IOW, better logic is not a trait of autistics, it is a coping strategy. This is probably also why autistics score higher on SBCs systemizing test. At least mostly. Autistics do have a few adaptations in this area, but it is not logic and systemizing.



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01 Jan 2011, 6:38 am

Millstone wrote:
antonblock wrote:

Let's do something against this crap!
There is no crap to do "something" against. 2/3rds of autistic or AS people have an extreme-male brain. That doesn't sound like a claim I have any evidence against. Perhaps you fall into the remaining 1/3rd.


The crap is to take some male traits of ones own liking, while ignoring other male traits, and describing the whole thing as "extreme male", I've told SBC this several times, but he doesn't seem to be able to defend his position. A very good example of extreme male traits that autistics do NOT have is a tendency to form aliances with other males, to be overly concerned about their status and reputation, to enjoy team-sports, to enjoy the military, and many more traits. SBC cannot explain why autistics do not have those but only have the "systemizing" male traits. Unfortunately, many female Aspies fuel his misconception when they claim to be "more male". However, many Aspie males are less male in the respects female Aspies are more male. And, finally, both genders to the same extent agree that they are not gender-typical.

SBC could have investigated these things if he was concerned about science and the truth.



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01 Jan 2011, 6:46 am

AspergianSuperstar wrote:
Forexample where does talking too loudly fit into empathy? It just doesn't


No, it doesn't. This is a clear example of not being aware of how loud to talk. It fits into differences in nonverbal communication. Just as basically all the issues in the EQ-test. All the relevant items in the EQ-test cluster to the NT communication group in Aspie-quiz.



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01 Jan 2011, 6:57 am

Woodpecker wrote:
In the same way if the three scales of SBC are unable to give us an insight into the origin of autism it might be a shame and a disappointment to some people but it does not make the three scales any less valid as diagnostic tools.


The diagnosis is a "reasoning issue" on the DSM panel, and as such as no real validity outside of psychiatry. So if a test correlates well with criteria and/or diagnosed individuals, and has good selectivity, it can be called a valid test.

SBC have validated his test against diagnosed populations and a reference population, and the results look impressive. However, one needs to understand that his neurotypical control-group consists of extremely neurotypical individuals, and that such a sample cannot even be found on the Web. He does not include people with comorbid conditions like ADD/ADHD. If he did this, his test would fare pretty badly. I know since I've tried it on such a sample. That only 2% in the general population would score above his cutoff is pure fantasy.

And we also have to consider the result that his test have in relation to female Aspies, because they generally score lower on his tests because of SBC male bias.



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01 Jan 2011, 10:25 am

Regarding SBC's control group of NTs, I think he has been using the undergrad population at Cambridge for some of the work. I have seen one of his papers where he was using data from the undergrad population there.

One problem I see in his research was that when he did the research on the link between AQ, SQ and EQ scores to degree subject he rejected data for any student with a mental health problem. I think that he may have removed a large number of people with AS or other differences. This is becuase a comorbid condition may have removed them from the study. I think that a better study would have been to have included the data for these students in a seporate column. These students with mental health issues (eating disorders, depression, etc) maybe should be subdivided according to the class of their mental health problem.

I hold the view that it would be interesting to see if a depression diagnosis makes any difference to the average AQ, SQ, and EQ scores for a given population. This could allow the selectivity of the AQ, SQ and EQ tests for autism to be checked. The work could also be repeated with other conditions to allow us to know more about these three scales.


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01 Jan 2011, 1:05 pm

Woodpecker wrote:
By the way the blue/green anbuend painting looks good to me and I like that one. The red one is technically good but I like it less than the blue one. Has anbuend posted any more of her art on the web ?


The rest of my paintings are at this link. Be aware that I'm crappy at taking photos of them, so the colors may be changed, the depth and complexity of the backgrounds may be sort of "flattened" compared to how they look in real life, and I'm taking most of the photos at a weird angle to avoid getting flash-reflection on the paintings. I generally do around 2-4 a week, but it may take me time to photograph and upload them.


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02 Jan 2011, 6:21 am

The easy way to photograph art is to use a tripod, and not to use a flash. If you use a tripod then you do not need t worry about the camera shaking, just pin up the picture on the wall and then point the camera at it.


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02 Jan 2011, 11:21 am

rdos wrote:
Millstone wrote:
antonblock wrote:

Let's do something against this crap!
There is no crap to do "something" against. 2/3rds of autistic or AS people have an extreme-male brain. That doesn't sound like a claim I have any evidence against. Perhaps you fall into the remaining 1/3rd.


The crap is to take some male traits of ones own liking, while ignoring other male traits, and describing the whole thing as "extreme male", I've told SBC this several times, but he doesn't seem to be able to defend his position. A very good example of extreme male traits that autistics do NOT have is a tendency to form aliances with other males, to be overly concerned about their status and reputation, to enjoy team-sports, to enjoy the military, and many more traits. SBC cannot explain why autistics do not have those but only have the "systemizing" male traits. Unfortunately, many female Aspies fuel his misconception when they claim to be "more male". However, many Aspie males are less male in the respects female Aspies are more male. And, finally, both genders to the same extent agree that they are not gender-typical.

SBC could have investigated these things if he was concerned about science and the truth.


Excellent points.


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03 Jan 2011, 2:36 am

Woodpecker wrote:
One problem I see in his research was that when he did the research on the link between AQ, SQ and EQ scores to degree subject he rejected data for any student with a mental health problem. I think that he may have removed a large number of people with AS or other differences. This is becuase a comorbid condition may have removed them from the study. I think that a better study would have been to have included the data for these students in a seporate column. These students with mental health issues (eating disorders, depression, etc) maybe should be subdivided according to the class of their mental health problem.


If he just studied links between them, it wouldn't matter a lot if he used Aspies, NTs or a mix. The result would be similar because even NTs have a few Aspie-traits that he cannot filter out with any kind of "mental condition" removal. I suppose he thought these traits did have a different background in NTs, but he is mistaken there (too).

Woodpecker wrote:
I hold the view that it would be interesting to see if a depression diagnosis makes any difference to the average AQ, SQ, and EQ scores for a given population. This could allow the selectivity of the AQ, SQ and EQ tests for autism to be checked. The work could also be repeated with other conditions to allow us to know more about these three scales.


I'm pretty sure that depression would increase scores considerably. This is because depression has a high correlation to core ASC-traits.