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I'm not going to be picking any more fights. Y'all have your beliefs and I have mine and each of us knows we're right.

Well said.

So fine.

Why not try constructive discussion instead of fighting which is already well represented in the world?

then I can't talk about religion.

That's RIDICULOUS!

Look, philologos, just look at me, the best example of humanity in the world. Fighting is AWESOME!! !!

AWESOMELYGLORIOUS.......you are absolutely the funniest person on wp.

MasterJedi: Christians and atheists do appear to be largely at odds and at extremes on the WP forum. It's really more often Christians who feel a sense of persecution than it is the atheists, and really the only reason that happens is because Christians generally don't know how to take opposition. "Goddidit" in the mind of many Christians is simply enough, and we really aren't taught how to think critically or express ourselves in purely logical terms. Scientific reasoning and pure logic/reason are enlightenment values that we've mostly been slow to pick up.

However, Christianity jumped from Jews who were well-versed in OT Law and legalistic thinking to Greeks who were philosophers and expert debaters. The Hellenistic Jews and the Greeks had a lot in common and were at home with each other during that part of our history, and it turned out that the Greeks were the ones who were better able to accept Christianity than their Jewish neighbors. In order to communicate Christian ideas, Christian witnesses of that time really had to be on their toes intellectually.

In the present day, the Christian viewpoint is more the mainstream and it's the atheists who are the "forward-thinkers," philosophers, and logicians. It's "easier" in a sense to be a Christian, so I think many of us have lost touch with our intellectual roots. The apparent persecution of Christians on WP has to do with the fact that Christians are confronted with things that force us to WORK in order to maintain our positions.

However, just because we've become lazy at defending our positions doesn't mean our positions are necessarily weak or that we are necessarily wrong by default. Neither does being an atheist automatically make your position a strong one by default, nor does it make you right. That's an easy impression to get from a casual reading in this forum, but it's not necessarily an accurate reflection of reality.

I believe firmly in loving the Lord with all my MIND, which is in part why I've stuck around in PPR. I don't get it right all the time. I've been put in my place PLENTY of times, and I've been forced to consider why I believe the way I do and how, in small ways, to respond positively to outsider challenges to the Bible. For Christians, this is valuable because of the way it forces us to examine what we believe in mature ways. "Growing up" has been a positive experience, and I love the ongoing dialogue when I have time to devote to it.

The problem, at least as I see it, for you is you haven't yet had the same experience. It seems to me you feel oddly persecuted by those who believe in God/gods because of the rhetorical maneuvering that happens in religious/anti-religious discussions--leejosepho called it mental masturbating. Don't get discouraged. It seems there has been an influx of Christian activity as of late, and I for one have enjoyed getting a sense of balance, especially with Philologos, 91, and Nambo (who even I strongly disagree with at times). All that's happening is we're holding each other in the forum to the same intellectual standards we've been held to, and it really can appear to be harsh and dirty.

I don't believe that is the intention, though. Don't take anything in here personally. If you feel you are more won over by PPR Christians, then by all means study the Bible and join us. If not, fine--no hard feelings. But don't think that you are under attack and don't get frustrated. One thing I can tell you is AG and I do NOT agree on many things--something I find utterly confounding is AG's reduction of all Christian thought to Calvinism, which I do NOT follow (I'm not Arminian, either, fyi). But AG is really good at pointing out faults in logical pathways, no matter if the argument in question favors his own views. I'm not quite as adept, but I would do the same as much as possible for other Christians. One of my pet peeves is misquoting the Bible, something even Christians tend to do. What we all try to do as best we can, whether Christians or atheists, is help each other. To that end, all views are valuable in PPR. You just have to learn to hang in there and not give up.

I'll give the same advice I'd give a fellow Christian: Getting "defeated" is not necessarily a bad thing. It only shows where the holes are in your arguments and your thinking. There's no shame in withdrawing. It shows you have the maturity to take what's been said, think about it, and adjust your position. The next time it comes up, and it will, you'll be better prepared. The less easily offended you learn to be, the better off you'll be in PPR.

^^^^

True.

Nice post AngelRho. <.< I personnally have no bone to pick with any religious person that has a shred of intellectual rigor in their methodology and argumentation. :p

With some reservations as to just WHO is the best example [I assume you do not mean most representative example?], I can agree. I have in my time done a bit of fighting - though less as the years go by, one stands back and let's the kiddies play with the electric train.

I am just saying, there is plenty of fighting to go around, why not do something else if, like MasterJedi, one would rather not tussle?

Ditto - I will happily sympose or chat [NOT the online version pulleeze] or pick bones or even tussle with any believer of any description or any unbeliever of any description who will think and talk straight. I see a number of full alphas around here, and I enjoy you

Those who won't - whatever you be - I hope you find someone of equal intellectual and argumentative capacity to play with.

I will let my record stand for itself.

I certainly have no belief in a personified, divine Creator. But I have great respect for people who do have faith, for the positive things that are done by people of faith and for the great contributions that have been made to our civilization by religious faith.

My only dispute comes when people of faith seek to exercise control over non-believers. I am pleased to say that these are a significant minority of the people of faith that I know.

In my several years of existence, EXCEPT for my mother insisting i go to church without giving any reason other than "do it", the control has in fact always been the other direction.

I do know that there are places where the opposite is true - but I am second generation academic and in that culture believers lay low and get socialized or else.

Which is why all of these discussions are so silly. Everybody wants to teach, nobody wants to learn because everybody thinks they already know; if there is a point to it, it is beyond my comprehension.

I do not talk to people who don't listen to me and I cannot understand why other people do. My best guess is that they are actually talking to themselves, reassuring themselves that they are right, and using other people as a means of self-deception.

if you can't be an example, be a warning

That does not sound like the gospel according to Thumper