Ethics av veganism

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Recently i have decided to try a vegetarian diet, partly due to health issues but also for ethical reasons. I do not see the point of eating other living beings if it is not necessary. Especially since animals suffer so much in the meat industry. the meat industry is also one of the biggest contributors to CO2 pollution in the atmosphere and to global warming.

i was wondering about the ethics of veganism (not vegatarianism) and if i should after a while go a stepp further and become a vegan. if they are any vegans here, why did you go vegan?
for example why not eat ecological eggs from free range chicken, who are not trapped in little cages and who can run free in the country? what suffering do whe bring into this animals if we eat their eggs?

and animal products that are ecological (and not meat) and that are produced under circomstances where no animals have to suffer?

Whats the difference between "vegan" and "vegitarian".

I thought the former was just an abreviation for the latter.

I believe vegetarians focus on making their meals from plants but still consume meat products that did not result in the death of the animal (aka milk, fish roe, eggs) while vegans don't touch anything that comes from animals.

Ethically its a question of which reality you choose to exist in.

We are omnivores and as such we require nutrients that can only come from animal products. Our technology allows us to substitute those nutrients with much less effective 'replacements' that our organism has a hard time taking in. No matter how much propaganda vegans and vegetarians put out, there are serious health issues involved in taking those replacements over long periods of time. As omnivores we are capable of surviving on plant foods for a short term (~5 years) with very little animal nutrient intake.. past that the deficiency becomes severe. The tech. products replacing the animal nutrients can extend that to about 15 years.

Thats when you see the die hard vegans and others start to have real bad issues in their mid to old age.

I'm not saying its bad to lower your meat intake.. its actually recommended. 30% carbs, 50% veggies, 20% meat is the ideal combination for your 2 daily big meals.


Animal suffering.. I agree that modern industrial farm-raising is inhumane and should change but you still need to sacrifice these creatures in large numbers to feed the human population. Many cringe when chickens are hung upside down and get their necks cut off ... but conveniently forget that in the wild that chicken wouldve been eaten alive in a much more painful and violent manner.

Before you decide to switch your diet for good do consult at least three dietitians and have them tell you the pros and cons of it. You may feel morally good and physically better for the short term but when you're older those deficiencies will make your silver years hell.

Plants are kiving beings too. Where do you draw the line?

Me - I impact all kinds of living beings on earth just by living. I provide food for some [could someone convert mosquitoes to vegan principles], shelter for some, I kill or consume some by walking down the street. Given the karma I am already accumulating, I prefer to go whole hog [wait for it] and eat bacon.

I think it would be ethical if we all ate human meat. Think about it, instead of leaving corpses inside of boxes that use a lot of space, we ate them and thus we reduce the consumption of animal and vegetable resources. It is the green way to go.

I am hereby declaring that if you don't follow my advice to be green and eat human meat, you are an immoral person. If you oppose to it, then you must hate the environment. How dare you not change your dietary customs just because I say so?

Up to a point, I could concur. Human remains and other byproducts are notoriously wasted, and there is an efficiency to it.

Of course I cannot help but be reminded of Swift's Modest Proposal on the Irish question, and - I could not quickly find the quote from PG Wodehouse' story, you will have to make do with this link: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/arc ... 76558.html

The problem is - I think you will find that there are important psychological [however explained] and I suspect nutritional factors which make it a less powerful solution.

The topic has frequently been explored in Science Fiction, which was once a harbor for people who happened to be both thoughtful and creative.

There are professionals and schmeessionals. But there are of course people that cannot eat meat for health reasons, they are the minority though.

My aunt almost died for taking a vegetarian diet... Anecdotal evidence power!

Plenty of studies have dubious origin. Also, they seem to consider an optimal vegetarian diet versus average omnivore diets, which is an unfair comparison. For example a study compared normal omnivores vs. omnivores that ate balanced diet with fish, chicken and vegetables vs vegans and the balanced omnivores performed better in IQ tests. Unfortunately the study wrongly called the balanced omnivores 'vegetarians'. Likewise, there are plenty of studies that read 'vegetarians are healthier/smarter/etc' and it turns out that the vegetarians in the study just call themselves vegetarians and actually eat meat every once in while or they eat chicken and fish and still call themselves vegetarians...

This is the "study": http://www.vegetariansareevil.com/smarter.html

It is ironic the headlines say vegetarians are smarter when the study shows vegans are dumber...

A vegetarian diet can be very good for your health, although as mentioned above, there are some nutrients that you you may need supplements in order to get enough of them. I have been a vegetarian for about 17 years (I eat cheese and milk and occasionally eggs but no fish or other critters from the animal kingdom) I take vitamin B-15, B Complex and D supplements. The problem is it is easy to slip into a lazy diet (there's plenty of vegetarian junk food) and this can cause health problems.

I have been moving toward a more vegan diet, although I'm not sure I want to completely cut out cheese. There have been a number of studies that show a vegetarian diet is good for those at risk for diabetes and a vegan diet is even better. But that said, you need to take into account your own nutritional needs.

On the ethics of it, I think it's hard to be alive without having a negative impact on something. Certainly the plants and fungi might be campaigning for my demise considering my wonton consumption of their kind. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of eating a animal that might have preferred another day in the world so I try not to do that. I know that when I eat cheese and eggs and milk, there is a possibility that in doing so, I contribute to the unhappiness of an animal. But I also know that my choice to drive a car may impact some critter's heath or my walking in the woods might crush some insects. Of if I tent my house for termites, I'm going to be responsible for the slaughter of a heck of a lot of bugs that were just trying to make a living.

I try to do better, but I recognize that the only way I can completely eliminate my impact on other creatures is to end my own life. I'm not quite ready for that yet. At least when I go I will, hopefully, be a tasty morsel for a lot of bacteria.

Anybody know off hand, has there been any study of the effects on critters consistently fed the flesh of their own spcies [I dio not mean occasionally]? Given the demand for good research topics, you would think SOMEONE would have published it. by now.

When I was teen, even before I saw Soylent Green, and before I read Swift's "Modest Proposal" in school, I wondered about - not killing people for food- but about recycling the ones who die anyway- you know- making 'em into Spam for the grocery shelf.

One problem is that only about one percent of the US population dies each year.

So we each would only get about an average of one and half pounds of 'long pig' to add to our diet for a whole year. Not really worth it.

Later I learned that there are other problems- notably health threats.

The Fore tribe of New Guinea are traditional canibals,and for centuries many of the Fore get what they call "kuru" or 'laughing sickness'. This a 100 percent fatal neurological disease.

It is, essentially, the human equivalent of mad cow disease. They got it the same way that American cattle got the disease in the nineties- by eating the brains of members of their own species.

Eating meat can expose you to germs carried by the prey. But when the prey animal is a different species there is very little danger to the predator because its hard for germs to infect more than one kind of host- germs tend to be specialists.
But if you subsist on your OWN species you get dosed by the germs of your OWN species so you're asking to get sick. Indeed even, what I call 'near canibalism' (eating critters related to your species) can be dangerous. There is evidence that AIDS originated in the Afrian green monkey and the most likely way it crossed the species border into humans was because of the African practice of eating 'bush meat' -eating monkeys and apes.

You could counter that " you just need to cook the meat properly- and ofcourse serve it with fava beans and chianti".

But even so- if Soylent Green became a reality- wed probably all turn into mad cows.

Never saw more than about 15 minutes of Soylent Green.
Should have thought of Mad Cow. Of course.

Thanks both.

animals that are fed canibalistic diets based on healthy members of their own species tend to grow faster and stronger than those fed normal diets, even if they are normally herbivorous species; it's sort of a 'you are what you eat' thing, all the appropriate nutrients in all of the appropriate ratios. It's why the meat industry started doing it in the first place. However, as has been implied, when the source animals are diseased they pass on the disease very effectively.

It's true that we can't live without having impacts on other organisms. One person's immune system will destroy billions of bacteria and viruses over their lifetime, for example. However, we can choose to limit our negative impacts to species that are not sentient and especially not sapient.
I have a couple of hang-ups about being a pure vegan, though. One comes from my dog and my cat: while I am an omnivore from a rich country and can choose where I get my nutrients, they are obligate carnivores (especially the cat). I've never seen a dog that was on a 'vegan canine' diet that looked as healthy as the ones that are on well-formulated, meat-based diets. If I'm going to sacrifice fish and other animals for them, then I should at least commit to not wasting any of the products that come from the animals that died to feed them.

One thing to consider when looking for 'free range' eggs: cage free is not the same as pastured. Often it just means 'running around loose inside a big building' - though that's a hell of a lot better than the itty-bitty cages normal laying hens are confined to.