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Kon
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05 Jan 2011, 8:34 pm

Moog wrote:
Did your mum take valproate while you were gestating? I'd be surprised if mine did.


No, but she almost lost me and herself. She had a lot of blood loss and had to spend 2 months in the hospital. Valproate is supposed to be an animal model for autism like kindling is an animall model for epilepsy.



Moog
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05 Jan 2011, 8:38 pm

So, the valproate just induces an autistic kind of state in the rats? I don't think I'm entirely getting this right.

Okay, I reread it, and I think I'm on the right page now. I thought it was being suggested that valproate was the cause of autism :lol:


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Kon
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05 Jan 2011, 9:25 pm

Moog wrote:
So, the valproate just induces an autistic kind of state in the rats? I don't think I'm entirely getting this right.


That's right because they don't want to wait until they find enough "autistic" animals and they can't do these experiments in humans. So they use the best method they have of inducing "autism" in the rats, so they can study it.



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06 Jan 2011, 1:07 am

I'm convinced it has always been here. It's just people like autism speaks who take the extreme cases, exgerate them and paint a horrible portrait.


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aghogday
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06 Jan 2011, 1:18 am

rdos wrote:
This is no better than SBCs "extreme maleness theory". In fact, it is a lot worse because of the proposed links to VPA defects.

So lets debunk it for a while:
* Hyperactivity is not an universal in ASCs, although there is some kind of correlation
* Sensory acuteness is also not universal in ASCs. It is not even that common
* This one is much worse: Hyperactivity is NOT related to sensory acuteness
* Stereotypical behaviors are NOT inherited. They are environmental
* Overload in social situations is NOT related to sensory acuteness, but to manual decoding of social behaviors.

I think I'll rest my case here until somebody could explain the above problems.


There is research that suggests that stereotypical behavior in Autism is related to dopamine levels. There is also research ongoing pursuing a genetic link related to dopamine and Autism. While I don't see any conclusive evidence, it may be too early to conclude that stereotypical behaviors do not have a genetic component.

https://sfari.org/news/-/asset_publisher/6Tog/content/researchers-probe-genetic-overlap-between-adhd-autism?redirect=/news

While one can argue whether or not hyperactivity is related to sensory acuteness, per quote below from Wikipedia there are arguments for and against a relationship so I don't think a definitive conclusion is available at this point.

Some people that are autistic are affected by sensory hyposensitivity and some are affected by sensory hypersensitivity, per quote below. It stands to reason that those that are affected by sensory hypersensitivity could be adversely affected by purfumes, loud voices, and physical contact from social interaction that in combination with the manual decoding of social behaviors could result in sensory overload. I don't think one can conclusively state that sensory issues are not related to overload unless sensory overload is differentiated from social overload. If a person has sensory hypersensitivity, I don't think a distinction can be made.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Autistic spectrum disorders and difficulties of sensory processing. Sensory processing disorder is a common symptom of autism spectrum disorders,[7] although responses to sensory stimuli are more common and prominent in autistic children and adults, though there is no good evidence that sensory symptoms differentiate autism from other developmental disorders.[8] Differences are greater for under-responsivity (for example, walking into things) than for over-responsivity (for example, distress from loud noises) or for seeking (for example, rhythmic movements).[9] The responses may be more common in children: a pair of studies found that autistic children had impaired tactile perception while autistic adults did not.[10]

[edit] Other disordersSome argue that sensory related disorders may be misdiagnosed as attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) but they can coexist, as well as emotional problems, aggressiveness and speech-related disorders such as aphasia. Sensory processing, they argue, is foundational, like the roots of a tree, and gives rise to a myriad of behaviors and symptoms such as hyperactivity and speech delay.

For example, a child with an under-responsive vestibular system may need extra input to his "motion sensor" in order to achieve a state of quiet alertness; to get this input, the child might fidget or run around, appearing ostensibly to be hyperactive, when in fact, he suffers from a sensory related disorder

Researchers have described a treatable inherited sensory overstimulation disorder that meets diagnostic criteria for both attention deficit disorder and sensory integration dysfunction


While no direct relationship is proven between Autism and ADHD, it is interesting that studies suggest a correlation in fetal testosterone exposure in each of the conditions.

I think all of the researchers can agree that technology has radically changed the amount of stimuli and stress humans are exposed to. We adapt to our environment and our biology adapts to the environment.

I think that some of the biological characteristics may be related to stress in the environment, hormones, and fetal development. Environmental factors may play even a larger role after a child is born. I doubt a unified theory is possible because of the number of biological and environmental variables at play and the range of the expression of ASC's among individuals.



rdos
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06 Jan 2011, 4:26 am

Kon wrote:
Valproate is supposed to be an animal model for autism like kindling is an animall model for epilepsy.


There are no (and will never be any) valid animal models for autism. The reason is very simple. Every animal will come up as autistic if viewed in the context of neurotypical functioning. The thing is that NTs do not view animals as "just another NT", but rather as animals, which is why they don't expect them to function like them. For autistics it is different. Autistics look like NTs, and thus if they dont behave like NTs they must be disordered.



rdos
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06 Jan 2011, 4:35 am

aghogday wrote:
There is research that suggests that stereotypical behavior in Autism is related to dopamine levels. There is also research ongoing pursuing a genetic link related to dopamine and Autism. While I don't see any conclusive evidence, it may be too early to conclude that stereotypical behaviors do not have a genetic component.

https://sfari.org/news/-/asset_publisher/6Tog/content/researchers-probe-genetic-overlap-between-adhd-autism?redirect=/news


Levels of neurotransmitters ARE environmental. There is no genetic code for their levels. They depend on life history and present situation. That is also why depression and other curable conditions work by altering neurotransmitter levels.

Naturally, there will be a correlation between ASCs and neurotransmitters because environmental problems are so prevalent in ASCs in today's society.

aghogday wrote:
While one can argue whether or not hyperactivity is related to sensory acuteness, per quote below from Wikipedia there are arguments for and against a relationship so I don't think a definitive conclusion is available at this point.


In Aspie-quiz, hyperactivity primary clusters with Aspie social and to a lesser extent to Aspie hunting. The Aspie social group is far removed from Aspie perception.

aghogday wrote:
While no direct relationship is proven between Autism and ADHD, it is interesting that studies suggest a correlation in fetal testosterone exposure in each of the conditions.


There is a correlation between ASC and ADHD traits, just as people with diagnosed ADHD score higher on Aspie-quiz.

As for fetal testosterone, I've yet to see any study that validates the relationship between relative finger lengths and fetal testosterone. And a study that could provide a strong link between relative finger lengths and ASCs.



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06 Jan 2011, 5:14 am

It seems to me that autism is an umbrella term for an unknown number of common developmental differences that move individuals out of the mainstream of human social networks. A molecule synthesised, or not synthesised, as the dna unravels and recombines in the creation of a human being. That's about as grand and unified as you're going to get, if that's really the way it is.



wavefreak58
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06 Jan 2011, 7:39 am

rdos wrote:
Levels of neurotransmitters ARE environmental. There is no genetic code for their levels. They depend on life history and present situation. That is also why depression and other curable conditions work by altering neurotransmitter levels.


I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous assertion. The way these chemicals are utilized are directly related to how the brain is structured. The structure of the brain is very tightly bound to genetics. While it is true that these chemicals can vary in concentration in response to external stimuli, they are still created and utilized by processes that are highly dependent on the genetics of any particular person.


Quote:
Naturally, there will be a correlation between ASCs and neurotransmitters because environmental problems are so prevalent in ASCs in today's society.


This is logically equivalent to saying there is a correlation between ASCs and skyscrapers. Unless you can go back in time and determine the rate of autism in an non-industrial society, it is not even a correlation.


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In Aspie-quiz, hyperactivity primary clusters with Aspie social and to a lesser extent to Aspie hunting. The Aspie social group is far removed from Aspie perception.


The RDOS Aspie quiz is not even a diagnostic instrument. It is also not a universally accepted model for describing Asperger's and autism.


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06 Jan 2011, 7:48 am

peterd wrote:
It seems to me that autism is an umbrella term for an unknown number of common developmental differences that move individuals out of the mainstream of human social networks. A molecule synthesised, or not synthesised, as the dna unravels and recombines in the creation of a human being. That's about as grand and unified as you're going to get, if that's really the way it is.


Yeah, this is how I'm seeing it.


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rdos
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06 Jan 2011, 11:17 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
rdos wrote:
Levels of neurotransmitters ARE environmental. There is no genetic code for their levels. They depend on life history and present situation. That is also why depression and other curable conditions work by altering neurotransmitter levels.


I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous assertion. The way these chemicals are utilized are directly related to how the brain is structured. The structure of the brain is very tightly bound to genetics. While it is true that these chemicals can vary in concentration in response to external stimuli, they are still created and utilized by processes that are highly dependent on the genetics of any particular person.


The idea that ASCs have faulty levels of neurotransmitters is the ridiculous assertion. For one thing, antidepressants can affect the levels of neurotransmitters to "cure" depression. The original reason why the levels are off is not because of DNA, but because of a depressing environment. It is also known that serotinin in a wide array of species is related to status. For instance, in some species when a alpha male is defeated by a new male, his levels of serotinin will decline.

wavefreak58 wrote:
Quote:
In Aspie-quiz, hyperactivity primary clusters with Aspie social and to a lesser extent to Aspie hunting. The Aspie social group is far removed from Aspie perception.


The RDOS Aspie quiz is not even a diagnostic instrument. It is also not a universally accepted model for describing Asperger's and autism.


Regardless of the validity of Aspie quiz, the absense of strong correlation between hyperactivity and sensory issues remains as this is an empricial finding.



rdos
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06 Jan 2011, 11:21 am

Moog wrote:
peterd wrote:
It seems to me that autism is an umbrella term for an unknown number of common developmental differences that move individuals out of the mainstream of human social networks. A molecule synthesised, or not synthesised, as the dna unravels and recombines in the creation of a human being. That's about as grand and unified as you're going to get, if that's really the way it is.


Yeah, this is how I'm seeing it.


Yeah, me too.



wavefreak58
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06 Jan 2011, 11:24 am

rdos wrote:
The original reason why the levels are off is not because of DNA, but because of a depressing environment.


It this were true then everyone in the same environment would be depressed at the same time. This is clearly not the case.

Quote:
Regardless of the validity of Aspie quiz, the absense of strong correlation between hyperactivity and sensory issues remains as this is an empricial finding.


It is not necessary to invoke the Aspie quiz in order to validate this non-correlation. The Aspie quiz is irrelevant.


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rdos
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06 Jan 2011, 11:31 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
rdos wrote:
The original reason why the levels are off is not because of DNA, but because of a depressing environment.


It this were true then everyone in the same environment would be depressed at the same time. This is clearly not the case.


Clearly not so. Autistics are frequently bullied and badly treated because of their differences. That is why there is a correlation between ASCs and depression, which is then expressed in neurotransmitter levels. This is the causative route, not some inborn errors in neurotransmitters.



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06 Jan 2011, 11:40 am

rdos wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
rdos wrote:
The original reason why the levels are off is not because of DNA, but because of a depressing environment.


It this were true then everyone in the same environment would be depressed at the same time. This is clearly not the case.


Clearly not so. Autistics are frequently bullied and badly treated because of their differences. That is why there is a correlation between ASCs and depression, which is then expressed in neurotransmitter levels. This is the causative route, not some inborn errors in neurotransmitters.


And yet there are autistics that are bullied that do not end up with depression. Even if neurotransmitter anomalies are always present in depression, the cause of those anomalies cannot be strictly attributed to environment alone otherwise people in the same environment would ALWAYS react the same.


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06 Jan 2011, 11:55 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
And yet there are autistics that are bullied that do not end up with depression.


Of course.

wavefreak58 wrote:
Even if neurotransmitter anomalies are always present in depression, the cause of those anomalies cannot be strictly attributed to environment alone otherwise people in the same environment would ALWAYS react the same.


Yes, there are also differences in how autistics react to environment, but that does not deny that most of the depression and neurotransmitter anomalies are related to a hostile environment, not inborn errors.