College Education vs Autodidactic Education

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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 2:26 pm

As per the necessity of acquiring certificates, let me use one of the more basic certificates as an example - A+ which is an IT certificate.

The A+ certification costs $168 per test and there are two tests, meaning $336 for the total costs of the tests. The textbooks available for it currently costs up to $80 on Amazon for one of the more expensive ones. That's a total of $336 + $80 = $416 total. At Rasmussen College, they divide an A+ textbook into two classes each worth 3 credit hours, meaning 6 credit hours total. It is about $500 per credit hour, so that is $500 per credit hour times 6 credit hours equaling $3,000 for the chance to rush through an A+ certification textbook and not even take the exams, whereas the price of studying autodidactically plus price of exams is $416, so which is a better financial investment?

Of course there are many more fields of study than just IT. Some, like Accounting, have government mandated college credit hours prior to taking the CPA exam. However, obtaining certification in order to increase ones likelihood of future employment need not revolve around investing in overpriced credit hours. It's a matter of studying the materials of subjects for examinations not requiring college credit hours. Going after those and obtaining them is far less expensive and less time consuming than enrolling oneself in a 2 to 4 year contract and paying more than necessary for the opportunity to rush through reading assignments while filling out busywork. Studying textbooks on one's own allowed the freedom to actually learn rather than merely rush through to meet the financial deadlines of an "institute of higher education".



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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06 Jan 2011, 2:32 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
. . . paying more than necessary for the opportunity to rush through reading assignments while filling out busywork. . .

There's no question that you'll actually learn more as an autodidact, but for many jobs you do need the piece of paper. And I think the solution is pre-studying.

Sometimes I have benefitted from one class, then self-study.

And in my experience, Information Technology is hugely controlled by Human Resource "professionals"<---more on that later.



jamesongerbil
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06 Jan 2011, 2:35 pm

Yeah, sure! A+ certification is something I had debated about in the past, and forgot about. I mean, I could take the class, but I really am not much of a class-goer. Or, I can buy the book and study on my own. Then, I got distracted and moved on. But, if anyone has the self-discipline and inclination, why not? Save some bucks and learn a bit more in depth. Then again, no one will stop one from doing that anyway if one takes the class. Also, for the class, there will be a focus of what's on the test. On the other hand, A+ books probably come with all that.
I suppose it depends on the subject, though.



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06 Jan 2011, 3:05 pm

I've taken a few classes now that didn't have a textbook. They covered newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. That portion of my education could not be obtained for $1.50 in late charges at the public library.


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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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06 Jan 2011, 3:15 pm

I began studying C++ Fall semester 1998. I kind of pre-studied without realizing it at the time. I checked out a couple of library books week before and skimmed and read the parts that caught my eye. I stayed ahead of the book. I stayed up with the lab assignments (which can be tedious and pointless and I tend to perfectionize) with the help of a good lab partner. I remember sitting at a bus stop waiting for the college shuttle bus, and it occurred to me that I maybe knew enough about looping to do a diamond. And that afternoon, I really worked on doing a diamond, inputting the length, inputting the character you want. And it worked! Next semester I branched out to probability problems. If a basketball player shoots 47%, what's the chance of him or her having a relative dry streak (0, 1, or 2 shots out of 10). And I did the birthday matching problem. That is, I kind of used the class as a base and I branched out and did a bunch of stuff on my own. At times, it was a pretty substantial assignment and I may have made it more, so I would come back to the class, I made the class the priority. At one point, I wrote a C++ that impressed one of the best students in Assembly. A lot went well.

And then I faced the wall of "human resources." You have nontechnical people hiring for technical positions. The fact that I have a portfolio of programs on a lap top doesn't count. In fact, it's putting them on the spot, potentially embarrassing them.

In 2000, looking for a job in C++, it almost seemed like a federal law "must have 2 years experience." In fact, I'm sure they more assiduously follow this than they do many actual laws! Look, HR people have professional associations, they do things largely all the same, it's almost considered "unprofessional" to do them differently. They have been very successful at turf building and turf defending by taking a kernal of valid legal concerns and exaggerating them. It's like the last scene in the original POSEIDON ADVENTURE, you have all this, swimming through the part underwater, the character played by Shelly Winters dying, the character playing Ernest Borgnine's wife dying, the minister arguing with God and then dropping exhausted to the grate below, all this, and at the end you get to one inch of steel vs two inches of steel. Well, the "human resource" people are the one inch of steel! They are running a closed club.

It was single path. That might sound technical, trivial, but it's of the hugest consequence. They were only looking for people with corporate experience. Not programming experience, corporate experience.

And it's not just clean intelligence and pristine programmer. A lot of it is kludge-ware, you're ping-ponging back and forth with a complex system and that's okay, that is a way to do it.

I even say one ad (not in computer science, but showing how ridiculous the whole thing is) wanting a job applicant who is a "self starter" and then later in the ad "a team player." Hold on, wait a second, time out. It is usually one or the other. It's different mindset.

PS I prefer to think of myself as a human being, of course I do!



Last edited by AardvarkGoodSwimmer on 06 Jan 2011, 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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06 Jan 2011, 3:29 pm

Orwell wrote:
. . . newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. . .

That's the way it should be, but frankly, pretty seldom!

(although in fairness, I guess most teachers are adequate, some are really good, some are going through the motions)



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 3:45 pm

Orwell wrote:
I've taken a few classes now that didn't have a textbook. They covered newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. That portion of my education could not be obtained for $1.50 in late charges at the public library.


Yes, there will always be exceptions to everything. Find an exception, and therefore validity must be lacking totally, right? Anyhow, what fields are actually being pioneered that you refer to above? Probably something to do with genetics, biomimetics, or something of the sort?



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 3:55 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
I began studying C++ Fall semester 1998. I kind of pre-studied without realizing it at the time. I checked out a couple of library books week before and skimmed and read the parts that caught my eye. I stayed ahead of the book. I stayed up with the lab assignments (which can be tedious and pointless and I tend to perfectionize) with the help of a good lab partner. I remember sitting at a bus stop waiting for the college shuttle bus, and it occurred to me that I maybe knew enough about looping to do a diamond. And that afternoon, I really worked on doing a diamond, inputting the length, inputting the character you want. And it worked! Next semester I branched out to probability problems. If a basketball player shoots 47%, what's the chance of him or her having a relative dry streak (0, 1, or 2 shots out of 10). And I did the birthday matching problem. That is, I kind of used the class as a base and I branched out and did a bunch of stuff on my own. At times, it was a pretty substantial assignment and I may have made it more, so I would come back to the class, I made the class the priority. At one point, I wrote a C++ that impressed one of the best students in Assembly. A lot went well.

And then I faced the wall of "human resources." You have nontechnical people hiring for technical positions. The fact that I have a portfolio of programs on a lap top doesn't count. In fact, it's putting them on the spot, potentially embarrassing them.

In 2000, looking for a job in C++, it almost seemed like a federal law "must have 2 years experience." In fact, I'm sure they more assiduously follow this than they do many actual laws! Look, HR people have professional associations, they do things largely all the same, it's almost considered "unprofessional" to do them differently. They have been very successful at turf building and turf defending by taking a kernal of valid legal concerns and exaggerating them. It's like the last scene in the original POSEIDON ADVENTURE, you have all this, swimming through the part underwater, the character played by Shelly Winters dying, the character playing Ernest Borgnine's wife dying, the minister arguing with God and then dropping exhausted to the grate below, all this, and at the end you get to one inch of steel vs two inches of steel. Well, the "human resource" people are the one inch of steel! They are running a closed club.

It was single path. That might sound technical, trivial, but it's of the hugest consequence. They were only looking for people with corporate experience. Not programming experience, corporate experience.

And it's not just clean intelligence and pristine programmer. A lot of it is kludge-ware, you're ping-ponging back and forth with a complex system and that's okay, that is a way to do it.

I even say one ad (not in computer science, but showing how ridiculous the whole thing is) wanting a job applicant who is a "self starter" and then later in the ad "a team player." Hold on, wait a second, time out. It is usually one or the other. It's different mindset.

PS I prefer to think of myself as a human being, of course I do!


Yeah, people in HR departments tend to be like that. They work in a world of bureaucracies and have a seriously overwhelming case of myopia.



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06 Jan 2011, 4:20 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I've taken a few classes now that didn't have a textbook. They covered newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. That portion of my education could not be obtained for $1.50 in late charges at the public library.


Yes, there will always be exceptions to everything. Find an exception, and therefore validity must be lacking totally, right?

I don't think Orwell means anything of the sort; he is referring to the fact that there is a social aspect of formal college education which can contribute to your knowledge, and which cannot be obtained as easily as an autodidact. For all the advantages you mention about autodidactic education, there are disadvantages as well. Advantages and disadvantages are two sides of the same coin. His disadvantage doesn't invalidate what you said earlier, but both sides need to be taken into account to obtain a more complete picture of college vs. autodidactic education.


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06 Jan 2011, 4:25 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Yeah, people in HR departments tend to be like that. They work in a world of bureaucracies and have a seriously overwhelming case of myopia.

Yeah, you said it, a seriously overwhelming case of myopia!



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06 Jan 2011, 4:29 pm

Stinkypuppy wrote:
. . . there is a social aspect of formal college education which can contribute to your knowledge, and which cannot be obtained as easily as an autodidact. For all the advantages you mention about autodidactic education, there are disadvantages as well. . .

I like pre-studying. Then, you kind of go to the class as a leader and a person in the background willing to help the teacher succeed (and the fact that I'm a guy in my 40s and that I taught high school for one year and have an idea what the teacher is going through has something to do with it!)

But here's what I would ask, How dearly is a person going to purchase it and how much is he or she going to lose the light touch in the process? For example, I've taken both philosophy and psychology classes and the conversations I was hoping for just didn't really materialize.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 5:27 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Stinkypuppy wrote:
. . . there is a social aspect of formal college education which can contribute to your knowledge, and which cannot be obtained as easily as an autodidact. For all the advantages you mention about autodidactic education, there are disadvantages as well. . .

I like pre-studying. Then, you kind of go to the class as a leader and a person in the background willing to help the teacher succeed (and the fact that I'm a guy in my 40s and that I taught high school for one year and have an idea what the teacher is going through has something to do with it!)

But here's what I would ask, How dearly is a person going to purchase it and how much is he or she going to lose the light touch in the process? For example, I've taken both philosophy and psychology classes and the conversations I was hoping for just didn't really materialize.


Pre-studying is a good thing to do for certain. As a homeschooler throughout my highschool years, I had studied two courses of chemistry and a course of physics and completed them prior to when I went visiting colleges in 2004. When I visited Bethel university, the chemistry professor let me sit in on one of his lectures. The topic was about partial pressures and acid-base equilibria, but the professor had to spend a fair amount of time explaining basic algebra regarding equations of the type of y = x + 1/x in the cases where x is either infinitesimal or extremely large as compared to the sigfigs. Some of the students didn't even know which way protons travel in an acid base reaction. In the hallway some of the students were having difficulty remembering a mnemonic for electrochemical reactions. I was thinking that they were just lazy back then, but after being enrolled in a form of college (although certainly not of the same caliber as Bethel but similar in another quality) I have come to consider those students as not lazy but rather overloaded with divers coursework. Such overloading reduces the ability of a person to comprehend what they want to learn.



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06 Jan 2011, 6:27 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I've taken a few classes now that didn't have a textbook. They covered newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. That portion of my education could not be obtained for $1.50 in late charges at the public library.


Yes, there will always be exceptions to everything. Find an exception, and therefore validity must be lacking totally, right? Anyhow, what fields are actually being pioneered that you refer to above? Probably something to do with genetics, biomimetics, or something of the sort?

That is not what I was saying; see the smelly dog's comments. But you have a pretty big chip on your shoulder against the formal educational system, apparently derived from negative experiences you personally have had with it. This is what I am pointing out: your experience is not universal, so quit pretending like it is.

As far as what fields, these classes were in bioinformatics, mathematical biology, mathematical modeling and nonlinear dynamics, and biological physics. Perhaps they are not the fields that interest you, and that's fine, but they do interest me and they cannot be learned sitting in the library. If you are only interested in pure mathematics or in computer science, then yes, those fields can pretty much just be learned out of books. But even in my history courses, I could not just teach myself out of a book. I've been lucky to have my studies directed by a major scholar in the field I'm interested in, and her guidance has been invaluable.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 6:45 pm

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I've taken a few classes now that didn't have a textbook. They covered newly emerging fields where the subject matter is not yet that clearly defined and there aren't standard textbooks that provide an adequate and up-to-date coverage. The classes instead consisted of conversations with researchers who have been involved in the area. That portion of my education could not be obtained for $1.50 in late charges at the public library.


Yes, there will always be exceptions to everything. Find an exception, and therefore validity must be lacking totally, right? Anyhow, what fields are actually being pioneered that you refer to above? Probably something to do with genetics, biomimetics, or something of the sort?

That is not what I was saying; see the smelly dog's comments. But you have a pretty big chip on your shoulder against the formal educational system, apparently derived from negative experiences you personally have had with it. This is what I am pointing out: your experience is not universal, so quit pretending like it is.

As far as what fields, these classes were in bioinformatics, mathematical biology, mathematical modeling and nonlinear dynamics, and biological physics. Perhaps they are not the fields that interest you, and that's fine, but they do interest me and they cannot be learned sitting in the library. If you are only interested in pure mathematics or in computer science, then yes, those fields can pretty much just be learned out of books. But even in my history courses, I could not just teach myself out of a book. I've been lucky to have my studies directed by a major scholar in the field I'm interested in, and her guidance has been invaluable.


I do not consider my experience to be universal, however neither do I consider your experience universal. The matter is the cost versus benefit. Having conversations with researchers sounds like a thrilling thing, certainly, however conversing with researchers can also be done by appointments or through facebook. I sometimes ask questions of friends who are physical chemists, mathematical physicists, geologists, anthropologists and such of the sort (and that's just a listing of occupations of friends who are creationists) any time I have a question and they have the time to answer.

Also, I do not have a chip on my shoulder against formal education in general, but rather formal education facilities which do not facilitate students in their ability to learn due to the bureaucratic level of incompetence and inefficiency. Congratulations in not having been contractually enrolled in one and not having to pay a penny for your education. How many people other than yourself do you estimate, percentage wise, are in a similar situation as you yourself are? Anywhere close to 90%? 50% 10%?



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06 Jan 2011, 7:05 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
How many people other than yourself do you estimate, percentage wise, are in a similar situation as you yourself are? Anywhere close to 90%? 50% 10%?

Lower than any of those numbers, but still a lot higher than those who are able to get anywhere with pure autodidacticism.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2011, 7:22 pm

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
How many people other than yourself do you estimate, percentage wise, are in a similar situation as you yourself are? Anywhere close to 90%? 50% 10%?

Lower than any of those numbers, but still a lot higher than those who are able to get anywhere with pure autodidacticism.

How would you know this? In a sense everyone learns on their own anyhow. Some acquire knowledge that others have pioneered and some pioneer that field of knowledge by themselves, but each person learns on their own. Everyone, from childhood onwards, learns by analyzing their surroundings, the speech of those they hear, the manner in which things work, and some people even teach themselves how to read. The notion of the necessity of having a priest to explain everything for you is unfortunately a general notion and as such it acts as an educational retardant. Constantly informing people how dumb they are only serves to reinforce the artificial necessity of a virtual priesthood of credentialism. I consider most people that I've known to be capable of comprehending practically any academic subject - capable yet mostly unwilling because they have been indoctrinated throughout their lives that they are not intelligent enough to understand anything without help from an expert.