Conspiracy Theories
I lived in Lebanon for several years. To the Lebanese government there, the people are nothing but unwanted garbage. I can't say the same about the American government or the British government or the Australian government.
I don't know about the Lebanese government, but the British government and the Australian government PRETEND to care about their populations. I don't know how pretending to care is actually better than showing you don't care.
That's not what peer-reviewed scientific papers say.
Which ones? Can you name some papers that were NOT published by a federal agency like the NIST?
Check out the Journal of 9/11 Studies and let me know if you can find any papers that aactually ddresses their arguments and succesfully manages to debunk them..
If it did, where's the evidence?
To my knowledge there's no direct evidence but a lot of circumstancial evidence that can only lead to the conclusion that either the CIA, Mossad or both were involved.
Anyway, let me reverse the argument here. Where's the evidence that muslem fundamentalists had anything to do with it?
I've yet to see one witness report seeing a missile. Is it that guy who's well known for having his words taken out of context by conspiracy theorists? If so, I wouldn't trust that footage.
It's been a while. I should take a look at the footage again before I can comment on that.
Ok, I'm unfamiliar with this bit here. Where did you get such information from?
You're unfamiliar with this? This is pretty old news actually.
Anyway, here's what Wikipedia tells us :
You'll find some more info on the renovation program, the flight path and other issues with the Pentagon attack at the [/quote]Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice website. Also very interesting is this infamous video which is probably the first source most people think of when they think of the anomalies regarding the Pentagon strike.
I have no problem agreeing with this bit. I just haven't seen any quote-mining being done by the other side. In fact, I don't see why they need to. Anyone who's telling the truth doesn't need to resort to such deceptive tactics.
True. That's precisely why the sceptics of the official side don't need to
Are you sure it's not you having a problem with the Jews that you reject the "official" version of 9/11? I mean, let's face it. Judging from your posts, you seem to have a problem with them. Did they do anything bad or naughty to you when you were a child?
First of all, I have been sceptical about the whole issue from the very start and back then I barely even contemplated about Jewish culture. Second, I have a problem with Jewish culture because of its corrosive influence on other cultures that has been well documented throughout history. I do not have any problem with Jews who do not engage in such behavior and condemn it, like eg. professor Norman Finkelstein or professor Israel Shahak.
Oh, really?
You seem to know more than all the scientists out there who disagree with you. Doesn't that sound so fantastic?
I'm a former member of Mensa, used to be a maths whiz in high school, I'm currently a programmer by profession and in my spare time I've been doing research on psychology, history, political science and various other human sciences for more than 10 years now. Is it really that hard to believe that I just might know more about some of these issues than scientists who might be biased by any agenda?
CIA payroll? So now there's a conspiracy going on between several conspiracy theorists? LOL!
And you're complaining about fantastic ...
Ever heard of COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program)? Ever heard of Operation Northwoods? If not, look it up. US intelligence agencies have a long history of aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting organizations and individuals, whether domestic or abroad, by any means possible.
That's what happens when you watch too many conspiracy theory videos.
Actually, I probably spent most of that bandwidth enjoying myself watching creationists make a fool of themselves at YouTube and downloading ebooks on programming.
First of all, if you want me to call you a skeptic instead of a denier, then start acting like one ... and get rid of this agenda that you seem to have against the Jews. It's making you sound very biased.
So a genuine sceptic cannot criticise Jews without losing credibility? Is that what you're saying? Also, how does my opinion on Jewish culture make it any more or any less acceptable that people are thrown in jail for questioning historical accuracy on one particular part of history while this is pretty much common practice in ANY other part of history?
First of all, the US doesn't officially lock up people for their views. The first ammendment protects people from that although there are other ways to silence a person. However, there are many other countries where people can and have been charged, persecuted and locked up for no other reason but questioning a particular aspect of history. I live in one of those countries, but I'm simply not influential enough for my government to care. One of my countrymen did actually manage to reach quite a few people worldwide with his website and the books he sells and he has been sent to jail several times because of that. Of course there are many others with viewpoints just like him, but few have the balls to face a prison sentence just to stand up for what they know to be true.
The historical evidence is there ... just as there is evidence ofr the theory of evolution. If you deny all the documents and witnesses as evidence, then obviously you're a denier. A skeptic would look at all these evidence and accept them as evidence because they are conclusive and because there is no evidence that shows otherwise. All you have is denial on the other side.
Holocaust revisionists (or as you call them : deniers) do look into all the documents and witnesses. They don't deny any of the evidence at all. That's why the label "denier" itself is already a distortion of what they're actually doing. What they ACTUALLY do, is look at all the evidence from a sceptic perspective and their conclusions differ from the official story. Considering the controversial and off-topic nature of the issue I do not wish to go into any greater detail in this thread. If you want more details, let me know and I can send them via PM.
You're like the typical creationist who thinks the theory of evolution is ridiculous and full of holes while his belief makes more sense, lol.
I don't believe in anything. I check for evidence, I analyse it and draw my conclusions. That's how rational people are supposed to act and that's a method I consistently apply.
I already have. The peer-reviewed scientific papers say that it's physically possible. Any "expert" who says otherwise is a liar.
So it's impossible for two different experts to agree, right? It's impossible for those experts publishing in peer-reviewed scientific papers to have an agenda, right? By the way, what peer-reviewed scientific papers are you referring to and can I find the articles as well as their reviews online?
Actually, when I saw the towers crumble my instant reaction was that something just didn't fit and the more I thought about it the more I realised it was just physically impossible for the towers to have collapsed the way they did without the use of explosives. It was only after I came to that conclusion that I started doing research and came to realise I was far from the only one who had come to that conclusion... some of whom have a degree in engineering and this more scientific data to back then up.
Just out of curiosity, what are the claims that you have yet to verify for yourself?
For example, I simply don't know how to verify whether or not the WTC towers were in fact operating at a loss or what exactly Silverstein's insurance payment was.
The planes alone were enough to cause the damage.
Just keep telling that to yourself
So because someone believes in a silly religion, he can't know anything about engineering? What about all the other experts? What evidence are so-called "conspiracy theorists" dismissing? IMO, it's precisely your side that's dismissing most of the evidence.
Were they running at a loss? I have no clue. I just don't care, really.
It matters, because if they were there's a financial motive as well.
If he did, then good for him. Do you have a problem with him making profit?
I make quite a profit from customers sending me their computers infected with viruses and malware. It doesn't mean that I put the viruses in those systems myself.
So you see what I mean by conclusive evidence?
No, it doesn't. But it does provide motive.
Look who's talking
Cheers for posting that!
By the way, I do not know if you are familiar with the theory but there is a theory with some supporting evidence that it may not have been planes involved with the WTC's at all.
Somebody did a video analysis and has come to the the conclusion that the manner in which the planes in the videos moved was not possible. That it also looks as if the planes were doctored onto the videos which made the news.
People do claim to have seen the claims for themselves, but studies have shown in the past that if you show somebody something, they can believe to have seen it themselves when what they saw was in fact slightly different. NOT that this has to be the case, but it is possible.
2 part video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R41kiEq0sBw[/youtube]
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Somebody did a video analysis and has come to the the conclusion that the manner in which the planes in the videos moved was not possible. That it also looks as if the planes were doctored onto the videos which made the news.
People do claim to have seen the claims for themselves, but studies have shown in the past that if you show somebody something, they can believe to have seen it themselves when what they saw was in fact slightly different. NOT that this has to be the case, but it is possible.
I heard this claim years ago but I don't think it's credible. It's not just possible but in fact probable that a missile rather than an airplane hit the pentagon, but it seems pretty obvious to me that it were two airplanes that hit the WTC. After the first plane hit the first tower, numerous cameras were pointed at the WTC both by professionals and amateurs alike. I suspect this was actually planned just so EVERYONE watching TV at that time would see the second plane fly into the other tower LIVE. What better way to shock the entire world than showing the footage of a plane flying into one of the towers LIVE?!
I'm far from convinced that any of the footage we've all seen from different camera angles was doctored and I don't know why they would do that. Also, unlike with the Pentagon the WTC towers show a point of entry that's consistent with the shape of a plane and I've heard of no witnesses who question having seen a plane.
IMO, the whole "no plane at the WTC" theory is disinformation intended to discredit the truth movement.
Cheers for posting that!
By the way, I do not know if you are familiar with the theory but there is a theory with some supporting evidence that it may not have been planes involved with the WTC's at all.
Somebody did a video analysis and has come to the the conclusion that the manner in which the planes in the videos moved was not possible. That it also looks as if the planes were doctored onto the videos which made the news.
People do claim to have seen the claims for themselves, but studies have shown in the past that if you show somebody something, they can believe to have seen it themselves when what they saw was in fact slightly different. NOT that this has to be the case, but it is possible.
2 part video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R41kiEq0sBw[/youtube]
I did not say it was fact, just said that it seemed possible.
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She and a few million others I guess...
Indeed. This doesn't mean there's no valid reason to question the official story, though
Came across some interesting stuff on FB relating to 9/11
in Building 1,
in Building 2,
in Building 6
and in Building 7.
The events of 911 were perpetrated to conceal vast crimes.
The overwhelming evidence is incontrovertible.
It can no longer be argued against.
"... George Tabeek, who was the Trade Center's security manager... got a call that three Port Authority
workers were trapped in a command center on the 22nd floor. He informed a fire battalion chief that
he was going up to rescue them. The chief assigned a group of firefighters, led by Lt. Andy Desperito.
The men walked up to the 22nd floor. Tabeek didn’t know that a second jet had just struck Tower 2.
When they reached the 22d floor of Tower 1, Desperito and his men tunneled through the debris and
opened up a path for those trapped inside. ..."
Tunneled through debris on a floor 70 floors BELOW where the plane struck the building.
This corroborates that bombs were placed in the building to destroy evidence stored on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th floors. This evidence and the evidence in Tower 2 and the evidence at the Pentagon would have exposed vast financial crimes perpetrated under the guise of National Security by the President of the United States, Alan Greenspan, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Federal Reserve. Everyone at the upper levels of government was involved. Elected officials and appointed administrators.
This is why THERE WILL NOT BE a new investigation.
It's up to YOU to investigate 911 and share the data with everyone you know.
The first book below describes the QRS11 Gyro Chip, Smacsonic®Smactane, the Controlled Impact Demonstration, the 7 dead Raytheon employees linked to drone aircraft technology, Metastable Intermolecular Nano Composite Sol Gels, the connections to the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Federal Reserve and the Bank of New York and it uses 100s of pages of photostatic copies of SEC emergency legislation issued on 911, Federal Reserve Working Papers, depositions, contracts, bank records and more. It also contains over 50 rarely seen and very high quality ground zero images.
Book 1 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/911%20 ... edited.pdf
Book 2 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%2 ... mplete.pdf
Book 3 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%2 ... mplete.pdf
Book 4 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%204.pdf
Book 5 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%205.pdf
Here is a 5th book the same guy just uploaded.
Book 6 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%206.pdf
_________________
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I take it you've never been to Australia. The Australian governnment actually helps with its citizens' financial needs.
Just so you know, I'm an Australian citizen ...
How about a paper posted in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics? A lot of 9/11 conspiracy theorists have tried to have their theories accepted by this journal but in vain. In fact, while I do know of one "paper" by a James Gourley that was published in the journal, it was not actually accepted by the experts as a scientific paper on its own. It was added for experts to respond to with corrections. So it was really more of a "discussion paper".
As for the paper that was fully accepted by the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, go to the following link:
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
And follow the relevant link(s) from there.
I don't trust journals that easily accepts unscientific papers. I want an actual peer-reviewed paper that supports your theories. The ones you linked me to don't sound like they were heavily reviewed by anonymous experts in the relevant scientific fields and such before being accepted.
Please check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
So in other words, no actual evidence. Just you speculating and talking out of your ass as always.
So you want to attack a straw man, eh?
I told you to make sure you know what my exact position is before asking me irrelevant questions.
Lack of witnesses for a missile hitting the Pentagon NOTED.
Anyway, here's what Wikipedia tells us :
So it would make sense for terrorists to hit that section. What better way to piss the American officials off other than to target the section that had almost been done renovated after all those years? It sounds like a move done out of hatred for America.
Thanks for quoting that.
No, thanks. I don't trust the liar Steven Jones and the likes.
I might be mistaken, but isn't that a video by the Zeitgeist Movement? Judging from the editing style and the kind of music that's in the background, it must be.
Anyway, videos like that one have been debunked from a long time ago. And, once again, I notice the quotes taken out of context in that video. Such a shame that people like you continue to resort to lies as if it's a normally acceptable thing to do.
Allow me to post some videos that debunk the claims made in that silly video above. Don't worry, they're not as long as the ones you previously posted.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8v8ai2-S0Q[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is_qBXqObes[/youtube]
I wanted to post more, but I don't want to exhaust you with too many videos. The videos above are not long, so do watch all three of them. If you can't be bothered watching them all, then at least watch the last one.
Yet, the video you posted did a lot of quote-mining, dummy. LOL!
Just as I thought, you have a bias that's affecting the way you think and that's leading you to resort to dishonesty instead of accepting the truth as it is.
Yet, you're not a scientist, aren't you?
Ok, let's see you write a paper for one of the trusted scientific journals out there (the neutral and impartial ones)!
Come on, tough boy! Get to work!
You really think a fool like Texe Marrs may be on the CIA payroll? Is the Zeitgeist Movement also part of the conspiracy?
What about you? Aren't you a CIA secret agent out there to spread disinformation?
I bet that's what Texe Marrs thinks about you!
Hey, where's our fellow member, Patrick? Somebody (other than me) doesn't like your Texe Marrs!
Actually, I probably spent most of that bandwidth enjoying myself watching creationists make a fool of themselves at YouTube and downloading ebooks on programming.
Oh, the irony! Creationists are not the only ones making fools out of themselves on YouTube. Look at yourselves first.
Stop deluding yourself. You are NOT merely questioning. You are DENYING the experiences of those who went through the Holocaust. I can see how some countries would consider this a crime as such denial actually harms the victims of the Holocaust. You do realize that most survivors, if not all of them, suffer from PTSD because of such horrifying events. Denying what they went through only adds more harm instead of good.
Show some f*****g empathy, dammit! The world doesn't revolve around your sh***y theories!
Martyr complex, anyone?
You know who the real victims are here? No, not you and your stupid friend. It's the Holocaust surviviors!
Your friend should've learned what shame is by being put in jail so many times. But it sounds like he has a very big ego that's only interested in attracting people with wild theories instead of being interested in facts alone.
Stop lying to me. You are not a Holocaust revisionist. You are exactly what a Holocaust denier would sound like.
Otherwise, you wouldn't DENY what witnesses say about Hitler's men using gas chambers to kill groups of Jews. You wouldn't DENY the documents written by witnesses themselves. You wouldn't DENY what documents written by Hitler and his men say.
In short, you are a D-E-N-I-E-R. If you talk like a duck, and you walk like a duck, you are a duck.
L-I-A-R!
I already linked you to one of the papers. As I said previously, I now need you to show me one PEER-REVIEWED paper that supports your wild theories and that has been published as a fully accepted scientific paper of its own in a trusted scientific journal.
Note what Wikipedia says about PEER REVIEW.
You thought that way because you WANTED to think that way. You were already a fan of conspiracy theories at the time, weren't you?
Is that why I can't find one single peer-reviewed scientific paper supporting your wild views?
By the way, it's not enough to have a degree in engineering, lol.
Oh, so you're only unsure of the things that wouldn't really change your mind about the 9/11 events. How convenient.
I don't need to. The evidence itself keeps telling me.
Steven Jones is the same "expert" who "has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America", lol. Look it up on Wikipedia.
How can you trust someone like him if that's how he interprets evidence?
Who are those "experts"? Why don't they have papers published in trusted journals?
The evidence demonstrated by scientific papers, videos, and witnesses.
Nothing but vain words.
Motive to have the buildings go down, you mean? If so, we need actual evidence, not baseless words.
Motive for what? I don't want any more speculations wrongly perceived as evidence, got it?
The fact that you posted a deceptive video means that I had a point. You're not a fan of honest research, are you?
in Building 1,
in Building 2,
in Building 6
and in Building 7.
The events of 911 were perpetrated to conceal vast crimes.
The overwhelming evidence is incontrovertible.
It can no longer be argued against.
"... George Tabeek, who was the Trade Center's security manager... got a call that three Port Authority
workers were trapped in a command center on the 22nd floor. He informed a fire battalion chief that
he was going up to rescue them. The chief assigned a group of firefighters, led by Lt. Andy Desperito.
The men walked up to the 22nd floor. Tabeek didn’t know that a second jet had just struck Tower 2.
When they reached the 22d floor of Tower 1, Desperito and his men tunneled through the debris and
opened up a path for those trapped inside. ..."
Tunneled through debris on a floor 70 floors BELOW where the plane struck the building.
This corroborates that bombs were placed in the building to destroy evidence stored on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th floors. This evidence and the evidence in Tower 2 and the evidence at the Pentagon would have exposed vast financial crimes perpetrated under the guise of National Security by the President of the United States, Alan Greenspan, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Federal Reserve. Everyone at the upper levels of government was involved. Elected officials and appointed administrators.
This is why THERE WILL NOT BE a new investigation.
It's up to YOU to investigate 911 and share the data with everyone you know.
The first book below describes the QRS11 Gyro Chip, Smacsonic®Smactane, the Controlled Impact Demonstration, the 7 dead Raytheon employees linked to drone aircraft technology, Metastable Intermolecular Nano Composite Sol Gels, the connections to the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Federal Reserve and the Bank of New York and it uses 100s of pages of photostatic copies of SEC emergency legislation issued on 911, Federal Reserve Working Papers, depositions, contracts, bank records and more. It also contains over 50 rarely seen and very high quality ground zero images.
Book 1 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/911%20 ... edited.pdf
Book 2 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%2 ... mplete.pdf
Book 3 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%2 ... mplete.pdf
Book 4 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%204.pdf
Book 5 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%205.pdf
Here is a 5th book the same guy just uploaded.
Book 6 Link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16017306/Book%206.pdf
You never learn, do you?
I watched the 2cd plane go into the WTC live. That would be quite a trick.
What's amazing is that Al Qaeda had been at war with the US for years beforehand. That before that related groups had been at war with the Algerian and Egyptian governments. This was no hoax. These people were serious.
It wasnt even the first time that Islamicists had attempted to fly a plane into a building. That was a French airliner in Algeria. Air France 8969 in 1994.
sartresue
Veteran
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 69
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
Selection of evidence topic
Those who rely on conspiracies as evidence and explanations for extraordinary events are relying on tautalogies as absolute proof. In this way they can deny that which does not fit a neat, easy and erroneous conclusion.
For example: Hijacked planes did not destroy the twin towers, damage the pentagon, or crash into a Pennsylvania field. It was a secret government plot using cleverly placed explosives, timed to explode when people thought they saw planes crash into the Twin towers, or the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania field was mined. Was any wreckage found? No? This means, of course, that the official government explanation and eyewitness accounts of planes used as bombs is a myth. Of course. Only explosives could cause such destruction. Many future terrorists are laughing at such explanations, and realize they could get away with murder.
So what can be done? How can we refute so called proof of conspiracies? If such paranoia continues, this will mean there are safety concerns that can be ignored. Mistrust of basic government structure means that further conspiracies will crop up. And some even think if conspiracy theory is ignored, it will also go away.
In order to prevent the proliferation of paranoid conspiracy nonsense, I think this means ongoing review of the evidence and not bundling the results into meaningless tautologies, as this is how conspiracies rear their useless heads. Eyewitness accounts must be recorded and reviewed and kept in the open so that deluded people with hate agendas do not crop up like bad weeds to deny credible evidence fostering mistrust. This is one way to stop Holocaust deniers from getting the upper hand. A similar approach cvould be used to prevent deniers of the terror attacks of September 11, 2001.
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Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory
NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo
For me personally looking at a single event, say 9/11 for example is not going far enough.
To get a better idea of what has really happened I find it better to examine what else is going on in the world.
I find the best place to start is with the history of the Illuminati to try and get an idea of how tight a grip the Illuminati has on our financial systems across the world, which as a result has also given them control of the political parties and media as well. Any stories they don't want heard are most likely not to be heard at all. Stories they want people to hear, are likely to be pushed by the media.
The main theme of this film is about the eventual plans for global government, but if you take a look at the first half an hour or so of it you get an idea of the financial hold the Rothschilds have on the world.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-CrNlilZho[/youtube]
A good documentary which helps to show how biased the media is. You need to bare in mind whilst watching it, that this covers only a small fraction of the cases around the world when certain stories were being shown whilst others were ignored. Not everyone buys into the BS on the media and i am not suggesting anyone here believes everything they are told, but on the whole, they are intentionally dishonest,.
and if you ask me, the emergence of pop culture and the sexing up of society both being pushed forward, made it quite easy for a lot of people to easily ignore some of the critical events around the world.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_lYGyIaK80[/youtube]
I posted this before, but will jsut post it agian and sum it up. It is a look at why America really benefited from 9/11 and without it they would have fit financial disaster. I have a feeling that some of the info in this video was not reported on the news, but i do not know for certain for myself. if anyone knows please say.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMkXA6kqNsw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xQso_zgris&feature=related[/youtube]
Another topic of great debate.; fluoride. People argue it is not dangerous but research has shown that is accumulated quite easily in the pineal gland. the pineal gland, as i believe is responsible for producing melatonin and helps regulate lots of mental and bodily functions. if it is not working as it should be, it is likely that it is making people care less and leading them not to question things as often.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZUYIq-X0g[/youtube]
Why they might all be doing this? Well if you want to know what I really think, they are doing it because of ancient religious beliefs. Ancient Lucafarian or Pagan beliefs depending on how you would like to look at it. They see themselves as the chosen ones of Earth and want to be able to dominate the earth, and possibly depopulate much of the planet so that they can enjoy it for themselves unopposed.
This hour talk outlines what they may want to do in regards to depopulation:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw4z-rSwNjY[/youtube]
And this is a look at their ancient beliefs and the way in which they have incorpoated it into society today. I have issues with this series called the labyrinth of truth myself, such as the "evolution hoax" and "demon face" part but it holds a lot of truth about the ancient pagan / lucifarian beliefs from thousands of years ago,
This is what makes me realise there is a small group of people dictating what goes on in the world.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8INGSHTkojI[/youtube]
Edit: in regards to flouride and many other chemicals designed to dumb us down, it all relates back to us being highly spiritual beings and the illuminati know of this knowledge, and want to keep the realm universal conciousness to themselves.
Nobody has to take a thing i say seriously but it is a worth looking back at ancient history to understand the way society is today so that you can put modern events into context.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJiCU6Jw0Co[/youtube]
Maybe i am crazy but then again maybe i realised some things that most of the world has been unaware of. no harm in you guys looking into any of it
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