The biggest struggle I see on WP L&D

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Is this: people not knowing the difference between what they're doing wrong and what's wholly irrelevant.

I'm finding this out bit by bit, when you have broad-based assumptions set out by the notion that your social skills or demand from the opposite sex are poor - it seems like in your own mind anything you will do is wrong. The more specifics you get, not only does your aim get much more precise but you're far more than likely going to stop beating yourself up for things you think it 'might have been'.

I think there are pivotal bits of knowledge out there - whether its approach to approaching like we discussed in Grisha's thread, the nature of the game and how people should view themselves within it, but also I think that when guys or girls get rejected here the most important thing they need to know is what was irrelevant to their rejection as well as what caused it. Often times, IMO most of the time, rejection should happen because - when you try to chat people up and if they're judicious at not just jumping in and taking whatever they can - they'll rarely be interested, simply because the chances of not being someone type are amazingly good. That said though, when you feel like you had someone's interest but then did something that blew it up - I guess its a bit more difficult from that end. True, everyone has their own idiocyncracies, some girls or guys could find out that you bought an import car or that you dropped acid a few times in college and that's it. You're usually better off without that type anyway, they either have some very niche battles with life or themselves where they're really better off partnered up with someone of the same character and opinion, anyone else it would mutually assured misery.

So, getting to I think the first point I'd offer - our first enemy is what society's told us. The notion that, having a social disability, that we're inferior. Its not to say that we can't be grating or have certain patterns of behavior where we can in fact bring bad reactions upon ourselves, its just that here even - an inherited bad attitude about self will cause you to widen your focus more than it should be and you'll end up beating on yourself for everything you do, right, wrong, and indifferent. The first part is understanding that this sort of negative halo effect is there. Second part - begin researching, figuring out how to peel apart the layers, learn what's positive, learn what's negative, learn what's indifferent, also learn what's indelibly/unchangeably you.

Knowing these thing will also give you another very powerful tool - ie. when you do get shot down or people disagree with you, you'll know the difference between when you should gladly defend your own opinion or whether it was an issue where lets say your socials kills did happen to give out, either by bringing the wrong things to the wrong audience, not waiting your turn, being apparent about something you shouldn't have, self-assurance is needed for confidence because people will try to scold you a LOT in life. You have to figure out whether they're right, whether they're simply sporting a bad attitude and rolling over you with it, and even if they are in the right you need to know how to meet it back assertively and let them know that while you appreciate the criticism and they're bringing it up that you're more than fine hearing and taking in such ideas without the need for it to be pounded in.

I think one of my greatest revelations did happen on NYE night though, partly having a sense of the propriety of trying to start conversations with the opposite sex out of the blue and getting shot down, that there is nothing wrong with it, and learning as well how to see myself as much in the right as if it were an issue of 'Do I go to the gas station and fill up my tank?'. The other bit that's recently hit me as well which I think is valuable - if you are in an LTR - the thing you need to realize, regardless of autonomy, you are in effect a free man/woman pretty much going to someone of the opposite sex who you feel to be the right person or quite close to it, and pretty much asking them to put the shackles on, to effectively take your self-sovereignty and be your master. In effect when you are in a relationship, 'we' sovereignty is usually above individual. For those of us who have been hurt or particularly have a hard time socially, we never feel safer than when we have full autonomy. We then perhaps get the notion that we want to find someone else who wants to the same things and that a relationship will work out. Well, yes and no. It could be like this in some cases, just that I've noticed for most long term relationships that I've seen work, there hasn't been much chemistry unless each partner saw the other somewhat as their master. I don't literally mean free to do anything to them. What I do mean by this though, I would take the question "Are you good enough for me?" and rephrase it "Are you fit to be my master?". You're essentially looking for someone to serve who is worth serving. I'll admit, this later part is perhaps just a strong hypothesis than hard fact, I've never heard anyone specifically say it quite this way, but, I think this is how it works just in judging my single bachelor/bachelorette NT friends and observing what sets them apart from the other guys and girls who are already in successful marriages.

I'd love to hear if anyone has any insights that they think they'd want to share - no matter how abstract or even with as many 'no one size fits all' caveats as it may have. It seems like what most aspies need though is a deeper understanding. Ie., unlike NT's who can glean superficials and get the real sense because their inherent nature revolves a certain way, we need it in reverse - ie. we need the core and real 'substance' of an idea explained. That effect can be practically revelatory and help us change hundreds of behaviors rather than simply trying to remember a whole laundry list of what to do and what not to do, which not only is stressful but even if you have success and don't understand the spirit of what you're seeing - it'll will likely still be emotionally off-putting, things won't work the way you'd expect it to, you might even make something that should work fall apart simply because your emotions end up out of sync with your partners in such a way that tells them communication really isn't happening on a deeper level.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and I think it's important to stress the point that it's absolutely normal to be rejected by most people you approach for everyone (because I don't think some posters in this forum understand this).

To me, what I see with friends in successful LTR, is maturity on both sides, calm and peacefulness when with the other, and the sense that they are one unified entity (not two separate entities) while still being individuals - like two halves of a whole (though that analogy is badly overused).

Here's an insight. Dating is supposed to be difficult. Most of the time, you will fail, because what are the chances that someone is your type? So as long as you accept that it's supposed to be difficult, then success becomes a whole lot easier. Being afraid of failure is the best way to fail. Success is when everything goes right, and the stars are aligned. Some people that you would be great with wouldn't go for you on 9 out of 10 nights, if for no other reason than they aren't in the zone and you aren't either. It's a two way street, and the other person is just as nervous as you are.

I agree with a number of your points. First off, it's absolutely critical that Aspies stop believing that they have a disability, or that they're inferior, or anything negative of the sort. At some point, one's got to make the transition from being a victim into being a survivor. If you don't want to be a victim, stop acting like one! If you're tired of a certain problem owning you and your life, then it's time to stop letting it and to own it instead! If you think you're worth fighting for, then the only way to fight for it is to... fight for it. Tell yourself, "F**k this, I'm not gonna let this beat me, I'm gonna figure this out because dammit I'm worth it!!" It's easier said than done, for sure, but really the beginning of any recovery boils down to this simple premise.

The second part, "learning what's positive, what's negative..." is more tricky, because I'm sure what comes to mind when one reads this is "well how do I know what's positive and negative??" With some comparisons, however, it becomes a lot more clear. AS folks aren't actually born with good logical reasoning skills, they're born with relatively good potential to learn those skills. Similarly, NTs aren't born with social skills, they're born with relatively good capacities to learn them. They spend their childhoods and adolescence using these capacities to develop their social skills, through social interactions, friendships, and so on. When they reach adulthood, they're able to draw upon every social lesson they've learned so far in their pursuit of romantic relationships. They aren't trying to jump into a relationship not knowing anything about how to interact with people! There is a natural and logical progression of learning, where you start off with simple things and concepts, and progress to more complicated situations.

This progression is evident in more logical topics like math: would you jump into multivariable calculus without knowing how to do basic algebra? Sure, maybe you could learn a trick or two to get by a specific calculus problem, but then a different problem would come up and you'd be lost because you don't have the fundamental skills. Similarly, a lot of L&D posters are trying to land a romantic relationship without knowing the fundamentals of social interaction. Many have had little success with friendships, indicating a lack of mastery of the fundamentals, yet they want to somehow jump into a relationship that is practically calculus on a social level. They may learn one or two tricks to get past specific relationship hurdles, but then they fall flat yet again because they don't have the fundamentals. Then with repeated failures they start blaming themselves or their neurology, and their self-esteem erodes. A lot of the problem is NOT that one is an Aspie, a lot of it is simply that one ought to learn the fundamentals first. That way one'd be more successful with the more complicated stuff. On L&D there's too much stress on the social tricks, and not enough on the social basics.

THIS!

I couldn't agree more with this. From the AS people I know of in both IRL and online I see this pattern repeated again and again. I personally didn't get anywhere near anything resembling a relationship until I had mastered basic social interaction, and then friendships. These days, as I am manually able to have and maintain close friendships with people, I have approached the relationships side of things. But if a person is still at a stage where they don't have any friends, or are unable to maintain even one close friendship for any extended period of time, then in my opinion it's sheer idiocy to try and leap off the deep end in attempting to start a relationship. The process of friendship should always be mastered first, because a relationship is basically in essence a more advanced form of friendship.

I think the biggest struggle...or obstacle, many of the men on this forum have, is their tendency to cling to their misconceptions despite being told from the source otherwise. This is a manifestation of "rigid thinking" and even if most of these men to get a girlfriend, I am willing to bet the relationship will likely fail because of it.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

If they strive to make more of an effort at the art of listening, accepting that maybe they are wrong, considering the point of view of others and so on, then they'd probably do quite well relationshipwise.

Chronos, I agree. And I think this was sagely put.

BTW, I'm a rigid thinker (female), too, who has learned over time to be less rigid. I think it just takes time. I also think the younger set (I'm 43) is luckier because there are resources for them.

Something else I should clarify, in my first paragraph - the broad-based assumptions people have of themselves *aren't* their fault in most cases. Life really can do things to people and if the tide is too steep in one direction, there's often nothing you can do about it. I've learned from experience that you can spend years of your life fighting valiantly 'do or die' to climb out of it but have the world take you right back down the hole by its own bullheaded force, it literally takes life situations getting better sometimes just for your nervous system to even begin to recover from that sort of trauma.

Its because of that I'd rather get at things that are more perspective and which hit mechanisms that bypass what people have been told about themselves or had beat into them.

Definitely agree, though in the end it's not all that useful to think in terms of "fault" and "not at fault", but rather "done well" and "not done well". Assignment of fault in effect affixes a label on the person "at fault" as a "failure" or "faulty" or "broken". Labels of all kinds, once applied, don't come off easily.



Although I think this makes sense on the surface, I don't quite agree that "there's often nothing you can do about it". I'd say that if the tide is too steep in one direction, then it feels like there's nothing you can do about it, but there's always something you can do. That something oftentimes seems very unappealing at first glance. It may not always be helpful in the long-term either (e.g. becoming passive aggressive), but they may be coping mechanisms that allow you to survive mentally until, as you mentioned, life situations get better. The challenge is to find the option/plan that maximizes the short-term and long-term mental and emotional benefits and everything else. When you stop focusing on what you can't control (the tide) and instead on what you can, you'll be well on your way towards getting yourself out of the mess.

That was a very interesting perspective on the subject. I like the way you think.

Yes, Yes, YES! QFT, and print it. I've experienced this too many times to dismiss the impact of rigid thinking on Aspies. IMO, learning to deal with that issue is more important to the longevity of a relationship than any ability to read body language, facial expression, understanding the flow of conversation, learning to stop talking about your special interests (before your listener's eye glaze over), etc. I've written over and over again about the importance of compromise in a relationship, of give and take, listening to each other, learning from each other, being patient, supporting each other. And the overwhelming response (although certainly not every response) has been the equivalent of, "It's my way, or the highway." And the real tragedy is that without the willingness to accept new input about a self-defeating behavior, the lesson is never learned. It will only be repeated, over and over. No lesson learned, no maturity, no wisdom - no solution to the problem. I just don't think being socially awkward is anywhere close to the biggest hurdle here - it's being mentally and emotionally and psychologically flexible enough to grow as a human being, then as a friend, and finally as a partner. The Aspies I know who are in successful relationships have become able to do this. And I don't discount the effort they've made - I know it wasn't easy. But it's possible.



I agree with @Stinkypuppy's point as well. There is always something to be done. But acknowledging that perhaps AS isn't the biggest obstacle to a fulfilling relationship - and perhaps dysfunctional behavior is - is the first step to solving the problem. Many, many Aspie traits have not bothered me....it's finding those Aspie traits in someone who is honest and loving and loyal and fair - and willing to work as hard at a relationship as I am - that's the hard part. Working on what you can control - your character - will pay off much, much larger dividends than trying to become a PUA. Keep in mind that if you want to be proud of yourself, then for God's sake, exhibit behavior you're proud of.

But I know that, at least in my experience, I tried to be as accomodating as I could be. I forced myself to not talk about my special interests with my ex (aside from music, an interest that we shared and what I thought could have formed the basis of a strong relationship. Also a little bit of football was thrown in since we were both new york giants fans to some extent) And yet it didnt work. Did I not try hard enough?

I tend to think that's what ambition is for me. Pursuing things that simultaneously make me happy for the day, add a change of thought and atmosphere, but mostly its investing in myself that makes me believe that I have a better and better future to look forward to.

For the moment things aren't particularly bad, have certain state-of-affairs frustrations (outside of dating) and in essence, I get into threads like this because I'm at that point where I can stand back and peel the layers apart much more precisely than I could when I was getting pounded on by life.

In essence though with your first reply, essentially I don't believe anything is anyone's fault - ie. I don't believe in free will, its something that I've come to see more as an easy societal frame of reference for the average person to get their head around rather than being bottom line, but regardless, we all own the consequences of our actions just as much in that regard, whether life is a tree of choices or a single rail with many zigzags peaks and tunnels. All the same, I think what we need to be careful of with the people who are stuck in the wining state - 1) don't feed it but also 2) we don't want to add it as a reason that they deserve it. It may sound like brilliant reverse psychology to some but, when people are at rock bottom, it works quite the opposite way. I think that's why I wanted to bring up 'no fault', its more or less going back to that frame of reference that I'll see pop up here and there. The real message should be 'focus' more or less, pull back and try to get detail rather than worry that every action initiated by you is tainted by its source. Knowledge seems to be the best tool against that sort of negative over-generalization because it gives people a more accurate way of reading their own behavior rather than oppressively broad guesses.

Toad, I see your rigid thinking in your belief that you have one small pool of partners to choose from, and that your ex is the only relationship you'll ever have. I'm still hopeful that you'll come to see that there are many other women, and many other chances for relationships in your future.

I don't get the sense that the biggest issue is fault - more that it's learned helplessness.