Higher order Theory of Mind (test yourself)

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How did you do on the Theory of Mind questions?
They were all confusing. 14%  14%  [ 14 ]
I could do the lower order questions, but I couldn't do the 4th order ones. 14%  14%  [ 14 ]
They were all doable. 72%  72%  [ 72 ]
Total votes : 100

SplendidSnail
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28 Oct 2017, 2:29 pm

What I found when I did it was that I was going incredibly slowly just to comprehend the questions, and that I was working out the answers using logic as I figured out the questions.

I've got a feeling that, if one is using theory of mind properly, your mind is supposed to figure out the answer automatically without having to think it through, but given how much logic I had to use just to understand the questions, I never got the opportunity to determine whether I could determine the answer without resorting to logic.

I also have no idea whether I actually did arrive at the right answer because I couldn't find any answer key.


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naturalplastic
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28 Oct 2017, 2:44 pm

SplendidSnail wrote:
What I found when I did it was that I was going incredibly slowly just to comprehend the questions, and that I was working out the answers using logic as I figured out the questions.

I've got a feeling that, if one is using theory of mind properly, your mind is supposed to figure out the answer automatically without having to think it through, but given how much logic I had to use just to understand the questions, I never got the opportunity to determine whether I could determine the answer without resorting to logic.

I also have no idea whether I actually did arrive at the right answer because I couldn't find any answer key.


Yes. Its supposed to be automatic.

The most basic ToM test is: Mary and Jane are in a room. Mary puts her favorite toy into a box sitting on top of the desk and leaves the room momentarily. Then Jane takes the toy out of the box, and puts it into the drawer of the desk.

So when Mary returns where does Mary look to find the toy? The box? Or the drawer?

Youre supposed to automatically say "the box" because Mary had no way of knowing that naughty Jane moved the toy while Mary was away. So Mary would look in the last place she knew the thing was last time she saw it, which was where she herself put it when she left.

So all ToM tests are basically variations of that.



SplendidSnail
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28 Oct 2017, 3:18 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
SplendidSnail wrote:
What I found when I did it was that I was going incredibly slowly just to comprehend the questions, and that I was working out the answers using logic as I figured out the questions.

I've got a feeling that, if one is using theory of mind properly, your mind is supposed to figure out the answer automatically without having to think it through, but given how much logic I had to use just to understand the questions, I never got the opportunity to determine whether I could determine the answer without resorting to logic.

I also have no idea whether I actually did arrive at the right answer because I couldn't find any answer key.


Yes. Its supposed to be automatic.

The most basic ToM test is: Mary and Jane are in a room. Mary puts her favorite toy into a box sitting on top of the desk and leaves the room momentarily. Then Jane takes the toy out of the box, and puts it into the drawer of the desk.

So when Mary returns where does Mary look to find the toy? The box? Or the drawer?

Youre supposed to automatically say "the box" because Mary had no way of knowing that naughty Jane moved the toy while Mary was away. So Mary would look in the last place she knew the thing was last time she saw it, which was where she herself put it when she left.

So all ToM tests are basically variations of that.

I thought it was Sally and Anne, not Mary and Jane.
:D

In any case, even after doing these tests, I have no idea whether I could do the higher order tests automatically because I worked out the answers using logic as I worked out what the questions even meant.


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naturalplastic
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28 Oct 2017, 4:54 pm

Yes. Couldn't think of the two girls' names off the top of my head.

Its even called "the Sally Anne Test".

They have even divised nonverbal versions of the Sally Anne test for monkeys and apes.



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29 Oct 2017, 2:35 am

TPE2 wrote:
My main difficulty was to follow the stories.
Glad I wasn't the only one. I get that they need to be short and to the point, but they are so boring! It makes it hard to focus on them!

I also missed a bit of info in The Test. I must have missed some words because I did not read the important piece of information DGuru posted on the top of this page, about what she said to her teacher. You have to read them very thoroughly to not miss out on info and it's hard when they are so uninteresting. They made me yawn, despite really wanting to do them and test how I did.

I also did badly on the memory tests, especially with minor unimportant details like the color of the bag and which day they had football practice.


As for how I did, they were doable, on second attempt!

Warning, there might be spoilers below for those who haven't taken the test yet.

I had no problems with Bobby's chocolate bars, The video dilemma, or The school football team.

I missed out on what Kirsty told her teacher before the test, so when it was asked:

Quote:
ToM Level 2:
a) Mrs Smith thought that Kirsty wanted to do well on the test.
b) Mrs Smith didn’t know that Kirsty wanted to do well on the test.

I hadn't seen that she told her directly. I thought "how can I know? Teachers probably assume kids wanna do well, but it's not like they all care, so how can I know?
Then I read DGuru's post and went back and reread it, and realized the very text said it literally. (How is that theory of mind by the way?)

The other I was uncertain about is this:

Quote:
ToM Level 4:
a) Ben thinks that Anna believes that he knows that Mum wants perfume for
her birthday.
b) Ben thinks that Anna knows that he knows that mum wants flowers for her
birthday.


If the text is taken at face value, then there is no indication that he heard her in his room, so he probably thought he fooled her. But we don't know if she looked guilty having almost been caught, or if she looked and sounded believable when she said: “Erm, nothing yet, Ben”
I particularly wondered if that erm was supposed to be a hint that she outed herself a bit, or at least gave her brother reason to suspect something.


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naturalplastic
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29 Oct 2017, 5:25 am

The_Walrus wrote:
theexternvoid wrote:
It's "have gotten," not "have got."

Seriously? People say "gotten" and don't think "blimey, that sounds funny"?


Are YOU serious???????????????

Of course "have gotten" both sounds, and is, right.

If youre the mayor of San Juan Puerto Rico you would say "we still haven't gotten any help here".

You would NOT say "we still haven't got any help here". Yuck!