Higher order Theory of Mind (test yourself)

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How did you do on the Theory of Mind questions?
They were all confusing. 14%  14%  [ 14 ]
I could do the lower order questions, but I couldn't do the 4th order ones. 14%  14%  [ 14 ]
They were all doable. 72%  72%  [ 72 ]
Total votes : 100

ToughDiamond
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08 Feb 2011, 12:40 pm

mgran wrote:
To my ear "have gotten" sounds just as old fashioned and King Jamesy as "spelt" looks to you.

I thought "gotten" was American slang. But apparently it's official, and the rules are quite sophisticated:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html
To my mind, it's more logical and economical to just use "get" for the present tense and "got" for the past tense....."gotten" always seems like it's overdoing the job, like saying "stucked" instead of "stuck."
No offense though, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't slow me down much when I read it.



Yensid
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08 Feb 2011, 12:52 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Also I read once that professional musicians behave differently to amateurs when they make a mistake while sight-reading sheet music - the amateurs tend to dwell on the mistake they've just made, and therefore lose focus and make further mistakes, while the pros just accept that they goofed and move on without worrying about it. They found that there was no difference in the frequency of "original" mistakes between the 2 groups, i.e. it was only the amateurs' concern and their tendency to glimpse back at the problem that had gone by, that made their rendition inferior. Maybe that's roughly what happens to us when we try to comprehend anything difficult?


I have heard the same thing said about professional athletes. Many of the best coaches say that the important thing to do after a mistake is to move on, and not let it affect later play.

I wonder if this is true in the social area too. I find that when I make a mistake in a social situation, it haunts me, and really disrupts my functioning for a long time. Sometimes, it can even be a very minor mistake, which nobody else notices, but it still bothers me. Perhaps this is part of the reason that Aspies have so much trouble in social situations. We make mistakes, and cannot move past them. NTs make mistakes, and are not bothered so much by them, so are able to continue to socialize.


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Morgana
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08 Feb 2011, 3:43 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Could be.......another thing I notice is, I find it incredibly difficult to just drop a thought, especially if I don't feel I've chewed it over pretty much to completion. Naturally that makes it hard to follow anything "linear" such as books and films, and it also seems to be a part of my "talking past the point" problem - when I can't stop talking, it's because I've got a thought and I can't drop it (i.e. stop talking about it) until I've really made it "clear" (though I'm more clarifying it in my own mind than for the listener). Also the apparently poor "working memory" of many of us - perhaps the data isn't lost, but is just hard to switch back to if an interfering idea happens to grab our attention at the wrong time. Though that doesn't explain why we're able to switch our focus onto the interfering thoiught but not back again. When I get that memory problem, the tangent I've flown off at (and failed to return from) has usually seemed at first to be just a brief detour - the brain seems to see the new thought as strongly related to the main issue, but then it "expands" the new thought until it's too far away from the original concept. You'd think I'd be adept at nipping such thoughts in the bud by now, but once it's there, I just find myself exploring it to the full. Again, the prime directive seems to be that dropping the thought, however insignificant or distracting it may be, just isn't allowed.


Yes, this is SO what I do! That´s a big problem I have with lectures, or informative programs; my mind often gets distracted by a passing detail, and suddenly my mind is going somewhere else, with no idea what the person talking is actually saying. This happens with films too, and suddenly I miss the plot. Luckily, nowadays I watch dvds mainly, so I can rewind as much as I want....and often I need to do a lot of rewinding.....

Another problem I have is I guess what´s called a central coherence difficulty. Basically, I can watch something or read something, but not notice how things in the story interconnect with each other- basically, making it difficult to see how things fit together to make a plot. (I wonder if that´s why so many of us feel like we´re "forgetting" the information? Maybe we see it as a lot of separate details that are hard to keep straight, rather than one interconnected whole?) Funny enough, when I first read the AS literature, I didn´t think I had this problem at all! ("Intense preoccupation with Parts of Objects"). But, now that I can watch the same dvds over and over again, I realize how much I actually miss how things connect together.....sometimes I only ever realize it the 4th, 5th, or 10th time I´ve watched something! 8O


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Mdyar
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08 Feb 2011, 4:06 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Could be.......another thing I notice is, I find it incredibly difficult to just drop a thought, especially if I don't feel I've chewed it over pretty much to completion. Naturally that makes it hard to follow anything "linear" such as books and films, and it also seems to be a part of my "talking past the point" problem - when I can't stop talking, it's because I've got a thought and I can't drop it (i.e. stop talking about it) until I've really made it "clear" (though I'm more clarifying it in my own mind than for the listener). Also the apparently poor "working memory" of many of us - perhaps the data isn't lost, but is just hard to switch back to if an interfering idea happens to grab our attention at the wrong time. Though that doesn't explain why we're able to switch our focus onto the interfering thoiught but not back again. When I get that memory problem, the tangent I've flown off at (and failed to return from) has usually seemed at first to be just a brief detour - the brain seems to see the new thought as strongly related to the main issue, but then it "expands" the new thought until it's too far away from the original concept. You'd think I'd be adept at nipping such thoughts in the bud by now, but once it's there, I just find myself exploring it to the full. Again, the prime directive seems to be that dropping the thought, however insignificant or distracting it may be, just isn't allowed.
To the OP:
Sorry to have strayed so far off topic. :oops: Please let us know if you're not happy with this, and we'll create a new thread.


T.D. this is executive dysfunction at work, but there is obviously a (functional) dynamic going on here with this atypical brain. There is enough evidence about the "mini column" anatomy, and I'd surmise the E.D. part is equivalent to not enough RAM memory to cover too much at once as you posted.

There are other significant differences ( anatomical ), but the fascinating thing to me is why or how can a variant arise as this, i.e. why not a loss in homeostasis with these anomalies?
Why not a brain # 3 with another set of significant differences .........? This just wouldnt work here.

We are way off the tracks now, but it must be that E.D. working here as you outlined. :lol:
Sorry to the opening post.



ToughDiamond
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09 Feb 2011, 5:19 am

Morgana wrote:
Another problem I have is I guess what´s called a central coherence difficulty. Basically, I can watch something or read something, but not notice how things in the story interconnect with each other- basically, making it difficult to see how things fit together to make a plot. (I wonder if that´s why so many of us feel like we´re "forgetting" the information? Maybe we see it as a lot of separate details that are hard to keep straight, rather than one interconnected whole?) Funny enough, when I first read the AS literature, I didn´t think I had this problem at all! ("Intense preoccupation with Parts of Objects"). But, now that I can watch the same dvds over and over again, I realize how much I actually miss how things connect together.....sometimes I only ever realize it the 4th, 5th, or 10th time I´ve watched something! 8O

You mean like this?
Central Coherence (Frith 1989) Detail Focussed v Global Thinking, Similarities v Differences
Are theories about what lies behind the drive to look for and, the ability to recognise and use patterns in the information we receive. Although some people have a better eye for detail and some will miss details but be good at getting an overview the "normal‟ thinking style is to categorise information. That is, we process information "globally‟, putting details together to get an overall picture of the world around us, and the situations we are in. These theories seem to explain how people extract meaning from incoming sensory information, categorise it and develop generalised understandings or concepts. In most people global thinking dominates but does not exclude the "detailed‟ processing. For people with an AS the latter thinking style dominates. They have such a strong awareness of detail it is hard for them to categorise information, recognise similarities in situations, see connections between things, structure their learning or, recognise the perspectives of others. In the educational setting this means, for example, that they can find it harder to read articles and research papers and extract the overall perspective, or understanding of, a topic. They can recognise and learn the separate facts but struggle to "jigsaw together the pieces‟.



Morgana
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09 Feb 2011, 3:02 pm

Yeah, something like that. It was much worse when I was younger, I think, but I notice some of it now too. I think I can piece together the meaning, usually, and get an overall picture, I just have to struggle more to do it. This is why I get so much more out of a film when I watch it over and over again. By the way, I think this is harder in film or "story form". I think watching a documentary with technical information is somehow easier to understand and put together. Not sure why.....it´s like in story form, I can see the details, but by the time they come together to form the pattern, or story, or plot, I´ve already forgotten some of the most important details.....they´re like a separate entity that doesn´t fit with the whole. I even notice things like this happening with simple 1/2 hour sitcoms, like 2 and 1/2 Men.

But on the other hand, I´ll have such an attention to detail, I´ll get upset when something isn´t consistent from one episode to the next....like if Judith´s lawyer suddenly turns into a different lawyer (i.e., a different actor) from the actor they used in Season 1. And then I have to find a way to rationalize it to myself, to make sense.....by making up my own story outside the story.....whereas, most people seem to deal with these little changes in detail better, to make a story.

Anything illogical in a film, for instance, ruins it for me. :( I guess I said that already......


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ToughDiamond
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10 Feb 2011, 5:52 am

Morgana wrote:
I´ll have such an attention to detail, I´ll get upset when something isn´t consistent from one episode to the next....like if Judith´s lawyer suddenly turns into a different lawyer (i.e., a different actor) from the actor they used in Season 1. And then I have to find a way to rationalize it to myself, to make sense.....by making up my own story outside the story.....whereas, most people seem to deal with these little changes in detail better, to make a story.

I seem to be the opposite, at least with changed actors. After watching the whole series of "Murder Rooms: the Dark Beginnings of Sherlock Holmes" twice, I still didn't notice they'd changed the actor who played Conan Doyle........presumably because of face-blindness. I only found out when I read about it on the Web. Though if I had noticed at the time of watching, I expect it would have distracted me.



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10 Feb 2011, 10:26 am

They're all doable. The same way that you can read a 500 page book written by someone who didn't believe in paragraphs, periods, basic grammar or good narrative structure. Doesn't mean either experience won't give you a splitting headache and stabby feelings towards the author. Make it a bit more adult in structure and less like something you'd find at the worst fan fiction board and I suspect you'd see more people with AS getting it. Not all, but more. The most difficult part of the story for me wasn't deciphering who felt what towards whom or knew what, but just keeping track of what the story was in that awful mess.



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10 Feb 2011, 11:14 am

Yensid wrote:
I wonder if this is true in the social area too. I find that when I make a mistake in a social situation, it haunts me, and really disrupts my functioning for a long time. Sometimes, it can even be a very minor mistake, which nobody else notices, but it still bothers me. Perhaps this is part of the reason that Aspies have so much trouble in social situations. We make mistakes, and cannot move past them. NTs make mistakes, and are not bothered so much by them, so are able to continue to socialize.

Yes I think that's often what happens. Though maybe it's more a difference between the confident and the not-so-confident, which probably correlates quite well with AS, in social situations.



itsme82
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16 Nov 2012, 5:02 pm

grad_girl wrote:
It's interesting... what do I mean about the reasoning being intuitive, exactly? I guess it probably means that I use a different part of the brain to process the information than I might with a logic puzzle, in the same way that most people retain memories of faces in a different way than they retain memories of landscapes or other inanimate objects. Hard to explain, though!

Don't think anyone finds the "He thinks she thinks" construction intuitive, I have to admit.


I do find that construction intuitive. Yes, it's probably because I use an automatic process to understand that kind of sentence. I also had no problem with the texts and the questions at all. Except for the very first one where it tested my memory on whether a shopping bag was pink or some other colour, gosh who cares -.- Afterwards, I paid more attention to all the details in the texts.

Not yet sure if I have aspergers or not, I just googled for ToM tests, to see if I have anything to do with aspergers... and this test was very easy to do. But then I was always good with reading etc.



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16 Nov 2012, 5:31 pm

I don't know which tests exactly were ToM-tests in my assessment, but I failed the Sally-Anne test being tested as an adult and as far as I know this is a ToM-test.
I am visually thinking and I was concentrated on the object and failed to put myself into the subject.


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16 Nov 2012, 5:44 pm

I have no clue how these are ToM tests. All you do is treat it like a micro logic-puzzle...



The_Walrus
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16 Nov 2012, 5:59 pm

theexternvoid wrote:
It's "have gotten," not "have got."

Seriously? People say "gotten" and don't think "blimey, that sounds funny"?



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16 Nov 2012, 6:36 pm

Morgana wrote:
And like some of the other posters, I also have trouble retaining the information. I don´t know why....(but I notice I have this problem in life too). Maybe I just don´t care enough about who loves chocolate and who wants flowers for their birthday, so I lose my concentration. It does seem to help though if I force myself to visualize the stuff I´m reading about....actually, I guess it would be accurate to say that I have to do that in order to answer the questions.


This was my problem, too. I just didn't care enough about the particular events or objects, so found myself zoning out pretty quick. :?



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18 Nov 2012, 6:31 pm

In case nobody mentioned it the test begins on page 240.