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Are you liberal or conservative?
Liberal 53%  53%  [ 29 ]
Conservative 25%  25%  [ 14 ]
Middle of the road 22%  22%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 55

_Russell_
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19 Jan 2011, 6:34 pm

I want to see what your guys' political views are....



Salonfilosoof
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19 Jan 2011, 6:45 pm

You left out "none of the above". While I would argue that "conservative revolutionary", "paleoconservative" or "conservative libertarian" probably apply more than any other labels, some of my views (eg. my support of the legalisation of hard drugs) tend to fall on the other extreme which makes me neither a liberal, nor a conservative and certainly not middle of the road.



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19 Jan 2011, 9:49 pm

Neither. I too am for the legalisation of hard drugs, but I still haven't decided if I'm Statist or Anarchist. Probably Anarchist, I honestly don't see anything in society that couldn't be handled be private firms, and State Education is so piss poor compared to what I pay $0 for at Wikipedia, Khanacademy and Youtube :lol:


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19 Jan 2011, 10:02 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Neither. I too am for the legalisation of hard drugs, but I still haven't decided if I'm Statist or Anarchist.


An anarchist would not be for the making of laws. To make laws a government is required.

ruveyn



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19 Jan 2011, 10:18 pm

Quote:
An anarchist would not be for the making of laws. To make laws a government is required.


I haven't fleshed out the details exactly, hence my ambivalence, but I still imagine that laws could be created in an anarchistic society, through private firms of some sort. Throw enough cash at an issue and it tends to go away.

I think people could get an infinitely better education, if it wasn't handled by a state monopoly in which quality isn't an issue, and rather by private firms competing for customers. I certainly don't think my parents should pay 30% of their income for twenty years, to get a s**t education which still costs a fortune. It can be done much more efficiently.


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Salonfilosoof
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19 Jan 2011, 10:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
An anarchist would not be for the making of laws. To make laws a government is required.


In practice, anarchism is pretty much actual democracy. Instead of some people commanding what other people can or cannot do, the community as a whole establishes a set of norms and values that are enforced by the collective to maintain order and stability. There are no leaders in the sense of actual hierarchy, only in the sense of coordination. Because anarchism implies involvement and acceptance of the entire community, it is difficult to apply at any level beyond the city state but nevertheless applicable when that's all you want.



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19 Jan 2011, 10:29 pm

ryan93 wrote:
I haven't fleshed out the details exactly, hence my ambivalence, but I still imagine that laws could be created in an anarchistic society, through private firms of some sort. Throw enough cash at an issue and it tends to go away.

.


How? Any social institution capable of making enforcible laws for the society is a government.

ruveyn



Salonfilosoof
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19 Jan 2011, 10:42 pm

ruveyn wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
I haven't fleshed out the details exactly, hence my ambivalence, but I still imagine that laws could be created in an anarchistic society, through private firms of some sort. Throw enough cash at an issue and it tends to go away.

.


How? Any social institution capable of making enforcible laws for the society is a government.

ruveyn


Not if there isn't any formal hierarchy. When decisions are made on a democratic basis and every individual has an equal vote, there is no need for any government at all.



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19 Jan 2011, 11:00 pm

ruveyn wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
I haven't fleshed out the details exactly, hence my ambivalence, but I still imagine that laws could be created in an anarchistic society, through private firms of some sort. Throw enough cash at an issue and it tends to go away.

.


How? Any social institution capable of making enforcible laws for the society is a government.

ruveyn

Well, the issue is defining "government". Anarchists usually define government in its authoritarian nature and monopoly on power.



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20 Jan 2011, 12:10 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
I haven't fleshed out the details exactly, hence my ambivalence, but I still imagine that laws could be created in an anarchistic society, through private firms of some sort. Throw enough cash at an issue and it tends to go away.

.


How? Any social institution capable of making enforcible laws for the society is a government.

ruveyn

Well, the issue is defining "government". Anarchists usually define government in its authoritarian nature and monopoly on power.

I still say the Friedmanite (David, not Milton) notion of a polycentric legal system handled by private firms is either incoherent or, in practice, indistinguishable from the current system.


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20 Jan 2011, 2:41 am

Dun dun dun.. where's the socialist option? Not everyone is americano, you know.



ryan93
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20 Jan 2011, 8:30 am

Quote:
I still say the Friedmanite (David, not Milton) notion of a polycentric legal system handled by private firms is either incoherent or, in practice, indistinguishable from the current system.


I agree, the formation of a legal system under anarchy is a difficult problem to solve. The best I can imagine is a consensus based, democratic legal system (which is still pretty far off what we actually have today), but that would still lead to people violently imposing their will on others, which is one of the things fundamentally wrong about the current system. Minimal Legislation could be advocated, but that could prove a slippery slope. I don't think there would complete chaos in the absence of a legal system, as people could forcibly defend themselves and their property, but its certainly not a theory I'd like to test.


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Simonono
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20 Jan 2011, 9:29 am

Monster Raving Loony Party



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20 Jan 2011, 1:24 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Quote:
I still say the Friedmanite (David, not Milton) notion of a polycentric legal system handled by private firms is either incoherent or, in practice, indistinguishable from the current system.


I agree, the formation of a legal system under anarchy is a difficult problem to solve. The best I can imagine is a consensus based, democratic legal system (which is still pretty far off what we actually have today), but that would still lead to people violently imposing their will on others, which is one of the things fundamentally wrong about the current system. Minimal Legislation could be advocated, but that could prove a slippery slope. I don't think there would complete chaos in the absence of a legal system, as people could forcibly defend themselves and their property, but its certainly not a theory I'd like to test.


IMO, there are two major problems with the application of an anarchist state :
-- What to do with stupid, uneducated people? Anarchism works fine when people are intelligent, noble and courageous. However, in reality there are many people who don't posess some or all of these qualities and both religion and ideology were invented to keep these people in line. Anarchism would imply a lack of authority and I seriously question what would happen to these people.
-- How to go beyond the city state? When you can practically bring the people together in a stadium to debate on issues, then direct democracy in a leaderless system can work. However, in a city like New York you'd already lack that possibility and on a regional or national level it's even worse. Modern technology may be able to bridge the gap but then another issue is how to allign the major cultural differences of such a large number of people without ending up with a petty majority ruled system where no one actually agrees with the majority of the legislation.



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20 Jan 2011, 1:27 pm

I voted middle of the road- but that doesn't really sum up my political beliefs. I don't think there is a description for what I believe. No Canadian political party shares my views



georgewbush
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20 Jan 2011, 3:17 pm

there are 12 votes for liberal. 3, including me, for conservative.

i'm not surprised.