A good article for all you "nice guys" that you sh

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Khan
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24 Jan 2011, 12:45 am

I found this article rather interesting and a bit humourous because it fits the profiles of many male wrongplanet members. For any male aspie who wants to complain that nice guys finish last, read this article; its main thesis is that you may be a nice guy but your warped perceptions on women and your inability to self-criticize yourselves and your failings is why women are not interested in you. Here it is:

Quote:
By Ambrose Diaz

Nice guys finish last. We’ve all heard the phrase a thousand times.
I’ve even offered it as an explanation for some unsuccessful relationships. I wonder though, is it just an excuse for other shortcomings?

Are we just trying to make ourselves feel better when, in fact, the problem may lie with us and not with the women who prefer guys who apparently are not nice?

Do men honestly think that being nice is a drawback when it comes to women? I think that we need to take a good look at ourselves if we’ve ever uttered this phrase as an excuse.

Nice Guy Syndrome has become a pervasive way of thinking for a certain type of man. I stumbled on this quote posted on the Counseling Center for Human Development Web site at The University of South Florida:

“The nice guy is the person who you trust and feel comfortable with, but don’t see as ‘fun’ or ‘challenging’ or really all that ‘interesting,’ other than as a friend, of course.”

I think that quote is the classic Nice Guy Syndrome mind-set. It sounds pretty reasonable at first blush, but if we look deeper at how the “Nice Guys” behave, we’ll see some similarities in their thinking and actions.

Some of the symptoms of Nice Guy Syndrome:

Avoiding Conflicts
A so-called Nice Guy will go out of his way to avoid an argument even if he strongly believes he’s right. That kind of passivity doesn’t mean that you’re nice. It means that you’re a pushover. It’s not the challenge that women really want, it’s someone who has his own set of opinions and is willing to back them up.

Having a spine is a good thing… and conflicts are how we learn about each other. Deferring to the woman all the time leads to a stagnation in the relationship and can make a woman feel quite alone because when she looks to you for an opinion, all she’ll get back is her own.

Placing Women on Pedestals
This is a really big problem with Nice Guys and it’s a surefire path to failure.
When you put a woman on a pedestal, you thrust upon her the idea that she is perfect, beyond-reproach, angelic, and unable to make mistakes. Who in the world can live up to that kind of billing?

When a woman who has been placed on a pedestal inevitably falters or takes a misstep, she comes crashing down hard. The man who placed her there can’t believe that the woman he placed all his faith in could suddenly become so… well… human.

Holding anyone up to unrealistic expectations is unhealthy for both parties. Nice Guys have to realize that they are involved with women who have faults. Stop foisting what you wish were their traits on them and take them for the wonderfully, flawed individuals that they are.

Passive Neediness
Oooh… this is one of the most irritating things in the world to witness. It also falls under the unrealistic expectations category. You want something from your mate (fair enough), but you don’t ask for it (not fair at all), then you feel hurt when you don’t get it (incredibly unfair).

Basically, if you want something, you have to ask for it. Then, and only then, if you don’t get it you can make an issue of it by verbalizing your feelings. Expecting a woman to read your mind is rather unfair, don’t you think?

Nice Guys, who you may have figured out by now, aren’t always nice, have a tendency to be passive aggressive in these situations. The trouble is, Nice Guys think that asking for something makes them selfish, but they have to wake up to the fact that we all want and need things, it’s what makes us human. Ask, and maybe, ye shall receive.

Living for Someone Else
Another classic trait of Nice Guy Syndrome entails the idea of self-sacrifice. That’s not always a bad thing, but if a relationship only has one person making sacrifices, we run into trouble. The end result of this is that the Nice Guy feels used and unappreciated.

Nice Guys often lose themselves in their partner and do everything to try and make them happy. But, in the process, they lose their individuality, the very individuality that probably made them attractive to their mate in the first place.

Nice Guys are so very eager to please that they end up denying themselves happiness along the way. Does that sound like a healthy way to live?

No More Mr. Nice Guy
As you can see, Nice Guy Syndrome is a pretty damaging condition. So the next time you utter the phrase, “nice guys finish last,” think about what you’re saying and take a moment to see if you really are as “nice” as you believe.



Musicprophets
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24 Jan 2011, 1:09 am

i always find these articles to be generic, broad, shallow based articles written by an internet journalist who just has a name and types "hey i write articles about this, so im right and you're wrong" kind of vibe and i will write it in less than a page length to get my point across. this nice guy does exist and he is immature, insecure, and unsure in the head and in life. does that mean that women never do this? no of course not. so that whole "nice syndrome" does apply to both sexes, but if men say a woman can be neurotic and she is immature, insecure, and unsure in the head and in life, then somehow it is because we cant self criticize ourselves. these articles are just good banter for the battle between the sexes since the dawn of man. complaints arise from both or one individual in a relationship who are not open to love, cynical, are closed off, and are perhaps immature, insecure, and unsure in life. its not going to go away. there will always be complaints of the shortcomings of either sex in the dating world, and nothing will ever solve it til we are all happily married with children or something like that. these articles should really speak for the young adults still in college and a few years after graduation and for those older individuals who see themselves in this, then perhaps you are immature, insecure, and unsure in the head and life. get help. however dating is a sick game sometimes and only the strongest and smartest survive, sometimes. yeah i know thats cynical and possibly jaded. maybe im the nice guy?!?!?! uh oh,..wouldnt want an internet journalist to make a caricature of me for their next expert dating advice article, would i? :roll:

in a more postive note, i found this article to be more useful and honest than the typical internet drivel from those yahoo! dating experts. :lol: this article is about the seven characteristics of lasting love. this is for those mature men and women who truly got their heads on right, like me. :lol:

1. Physical appearance
While physical appearance and attraction draw two people together at first, these aspects will affect the rest of their lives. If working out and staying fit is important to you, will it bum you out if your mate doesn’t share your quest for rock-hard abs?


2. Emotional maturity
Is this person emotionally mature and centered or still lugging around some trunk-sized baggage? How does your sweetheart relate to family and friends? Is he or she emotionally supportive or have control issues? Is your mate aware of his or her own issues and interested in addressing them?

3. Lifestyle choices
This includes career and social lives, common interests, leisure time activities and energy levels. Would she rather join the bowling league or the metropolitan symphony? Does he have lots of energy for activities with friends while she’d rather rest and chill out at home?

4. Financial compatibility
This is a hot bed for most couples. It includes income levels, savings goals and views on handling money. How do you each want to spend, save and invest? Is one person a spender while the other saves? Is one person financially responsible while the other plays catch-up with child support and bills?

5. Value structure
This area is often overlooked but has a tremendous impact on your life. It includes the big values: honesty, integrity, loyalty, views on family and children, religion and spirituality, life goals and the treatment and care for others. Does your mate follow through on promises made? Would you say this person is trustworthy? Will you always be there for each other in a pinch?

6. Marriage and intimacy
Everyone does not share the same idea of marriage. The big questions to address are: What do you and your mate expect from marriage? Is he or she looking for a soul mate? Do you both want close intimacy beyond the physical aspect, including with your friendships and in private communications with each other?

7. Intelligence
Having similar education levels increases your chances of sharing matching school and social experiences, intellectual interests and career goals. What topics do you and your honey like to talk about? Conversation limited to sports or shopping may get boring to someone who likes to ponder philosophy and bluster about business.



lightening020
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24 Jan 2011, 1:22 am

I don't think a lot of this really applies. Some of it does but it doesn't offer much advice, except "this is bad, do the opposite"

I have a problem with articles like this and views even on here from some elitist posters who talk about "nice guys" , "passive guys", not being "assertive enough" and other traits. "nice guy" is a nice way of saying your a "boring needy friend-zoned wuss" WE GET IT ALREADY.

Not only does that not apply to every guy on here(just a stereotype) but it isn't productive information. It's all negative "don't be this", "change your personality", "you have it all wrong", "be the opposite".

INSTEAD how about we try to focus on why:
-
-Most guys with AS have problems with assertiveness
-Why most of us are needy and have emotional issues
-Why most of us have self-defeating attitudes & low self-esteem
- Why most of us just plain and simple suck at dating/ talking to girls/women
- just kinda scared of girls

I am pretty sure I am not just speaking for myself with these statements, as evidence by the "Love and Dating" forum, and for the most part most of the forums on here. There is a reason we are horrible at dating. Lets be constructive.

Lets quit with this "Nice Guy" BS. Its not helping,, and in my opinion it is the wrong approach to self-help.



Musicprophets
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24 Jan 2011, 1:33 am

lightening020 wrote:
I don't think a lot of this really applies. Some of it does but it doesn't offer much advice, except "this is bad, do the opposite"

I have a problem with articles like this and views even on here from some elitist posters who talk about "nice guys" , "passive guys", not being "assertive enough" and other traits. "nice guy" is a nice way of saying your a "boring needy friend-zoned wuss" WE GET IT ALREADY.

Not only does that not apply to every guy on here(just a stereotype) but it isn't productive information. It's all negative "don't be this", "change your personality", "you have it all wrong", "be the opposite".

INSTEAD how about we try to focus on why:
-
-Most guys with AS have problems with assertiveness
-Why most of us are needy and have emotional issues
-Why most of us have self-defeating attitudes & low self-esteem
- Why most of us just plain and simple suck at dating/ talking to girls/women
- just kinda scared of girls

I am pretty sure I am not just speaking for myself with these statements, as evidence by the "Love and Dating" forum, and for the most part most of the forums on here. There is a reason we are horrible at dating. Lets be constructive.

Lets quit with this "Nice Guy" BS. Its not helping,, and in my opinion it is the wrong approach to self-help.


i agree. however this yahoo! dating article wasnt written for aspies, it was for the general nt crowd. but its not like nts dont have these problems either, because they sure as hell have this nice guy/girl syndrome too. :lol:
plus this article is just a caricature from an uncertified internet journalist and was probably written 5 years ago and is just being reintroduced to get more people to join Yahoo! dating. yahoo! dating sucks ass anyways.



lightening020
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24 Jan 2011, 2:00 am

{/quote]
i agree. however this yahoo! dating article wasnt written for aspies, it was for the general nt crowd. but its not like nts dont have these problems either, because they sure as hell have this nice guy/girl syndrome too. :lol:
plus this article is just a caricature from an uncertified internet journalist and was probably written 5 years ago and is just being reintroduced to get more people to join Yahoo! dating. yahoo! dating sucks ass anyways.[/quote]

Then lets not stop focusing on it here. and yes Yahoo sucks with its cookie-cutter cliche "advice" on various subjects of life. Are all Yahoo writers Community College Undergrads? I wouldn't be surprised.

All I am saying is yes some of this "nice guy" stuff applies but it is extremely vague and stereotypical, instead of ACTUALLY addressing the issues that plague us.

Lets try to be meaningful and productive on here, and try to get to the meat of the issues.

Why guys turn into the traits that are associated with "nice guys" is the real issue that we should be discussing.

I will start. I have really bad depression right now, and I think I have had a small degree of it my whole life including when I was growing up. I have also at times been really shy throughout school, and I almost never talked to any girls. I wasn't aware of the concept that you have to "win friends" for yourself, and put in the effort. It seemed like people became friends, made girlfriends/boyfriends by magic. It was and still is a process that is still a mystery to me. And why would something like socializing which is supposed to be a natural activity and a necessity to humans, be something that I have to "try" and "force" myself to do, because it seems to unnatural to me?

I also have really bad anxiety.



Last edited by lightening020 on 24 Jan 2011, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Musicprophets
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24 Jan 2011, 2:01 am

Avoiding Conflicts
A so-called Nice Guy will go out of his way to avoid an argument even if he strongly believes he’s right. That kind of passivity doesn’t mean that you’re nice. It means that you’re a pushover. It’s not the challenge that women really want, it’s someone who has his own set of opinions and is willing to back them up. -- a mature honest trusting man would not be doing this. i believe this has to be a minority of men in the world who avoid conflicts. men are not stupid pushovers, unless he is immature, insecure, unsure. i suspect this would be a problem for the young adults.

Having a spine is a good thing… and conflicts are how we learn about each other. Deferring to the woman all the time leads to a stagnation in the relationship and can make a woman feel quite alone because when she looks to you for an opinion, all she’ll get back is her own.

Placing Women on Pedestals
This is a really big problem with Nice Guys and it’s a surefire path to failure.
When you put a woman on a pedestal, you thrust upon her the idea that she is perfect, beyond-reproach, angelic, and unable to make mistakes. Who in the world can live up to that kind of billing?
well what the hell else would i want to date? a robot? this supposedly "smart" symptom is nothing but exaggerated, unrealistic dramatizations some internet journalist has created in her mind. i think its fair to say that men expect and want women to make mistakes, no matter how small or large they be. because they are human. duh?!? :roll:

When a woman who has been placed on a pedestal inevitably falters or takes a misstep, she comes crashing down hard. The man who placed her there can’t believe that the woman he placed all his faith in could suddenly become so… well… human.

Holding anyone up to unrealistic expectations is unhealthy for both parties. Nice Guys have to realize that they are involved with women who have faults. Stop foisting what you wish were their traits on them and take them for the wonderfully, flawed individuals that they are.

Passive Neediness
Oooh… this is one of the most irritating things in the world to witness. It also falls under the unrealistic expectations category. You want something from your mate (fair enough), but you don’t ask for it (not fair at all), then you feel hurt when you don’t get it (incredibly unfair).

Basically, if you want something, you have to ask for it. Then, and only then, if you don’t get it you can make an issue of it by verbalizing your feelings. Expecting a woman to read your mind is rather unfair, don’t you think? i think this symptom is seen in both sexes in a wide variety of circumstances, contexts, reasons etc. a smart woman or a smart man should figure this one out pretty quickly, but again a problem for those immature, insecure, and unsure in life.

Nice Guys, who you may have figured out by now, aren’t always nice, have a tendency to be passive aggressive in these situations. The trouble is, Nice Guys think that asking for something makes them selfish, but they have to wake up to the fact that we all want and need things, it’s what makes us human. Ask, and maybe, ye shall receive.

Living for Someone Else
Another classic trait of Nice Guy Syndrome entails the idea of self-sacrifice. That’s not always a bad thing, but if a relationship only has one person making sacrifices, we run into trouble. The end result of this is that the Nice Guy feels used and unappreciated.

Nice Guys often lose themselves in their partner and do everything to try and make them happy. But, in the process, they lose their individuality, the very individuality that probably made them attractive to their mate in the first place. who the hell truly lives for someone else? who has the time or energy to live for someone else? yes these messed up individuals exist, but to speak like this is the majority, is just f*****g ignorant shallow bullshit.

Nice Guys are so very eager to please that they end up denying themselves happiness along the way. Does that sound like a healthy way to live? so you end the article with a question? what other question could you ask that wasnt so plainly obvious? YAHOO! journalists, your degree in journalism needs to be revoked immediately.



Last edited by Musicprophets on 24 Jan 2011, 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

bewarethebob
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24 Jan 2011, 2:12 am

while some of that article is very true, it is exceptionally demeaning of you to post this. Not everyone acts this way.

Be nice, do everything for your partner, but that being said, dont lose yourself.



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24 Jan 2011, 2:19 am

lightening020 wrote:
I don't think a lot of this really applies. Some of it does but it doesn't offer much advice, except "this is bad, do the opposite"

I have a problem with articles like this and views even on here from some elitist posters who talk about "nice guys" , "passive guys", not being "assertive enough" and other traits. "nice guy" is a nice way of saying your a "boring needy friend-zoned wuss" WE GET IT ALREADY.

Not only does that not apply to every guy on here(just a stereotype) but it isn't productive information. It's all negative "don't be this", "change your personality", "you have it all wrong", "be the opposite".

INSTEAD how about we try to focus on why:
-
-Most guys with AS have problems with assertiveness
-Why most of us are needy and have emotional issues
-Why most of us have self-defeating attitudes & low self-esteem
- Why most of us just plain and simple suck at dating/ talking to girls/women
- just kinda scared of girls

I am pretty sure I am not just speaking for myself with these statements, as evidence by the "Love and Dating" forum, and for the most part most of the forums on here. There is a reason we are horrible at dating. Lets be constructive.

Lets quit with this "Nice Guy" BS. Its not helping,, and in my opinion it is the wrong approach to self-help.


The key word in the article wasn't "passive" but "passive aggressive". And I think the article is relevant (though the subject has been discussed here more times than I've tried to teach my cat that when I point at something, it means "over there!"), because people with AS tend to cling to NT half truths that being nice and selfless is the proper way to go in society. Most people will figure out boundaries and how to communicate them on their own, but people with AS usually have difficulty with this. This, combined with the concept that men should treat women in some chivalrous way, basically results in a lot of guys with AS, trying to do what they've been told is the right thing to do, not getting what they want from it, getting hurt getting upset, and then coming on here venting about it.

Not to mention the fact that people with AS usually have different boundaries than NT's, and often find themselves being invalidated by adults when they do try to express those boundaries as children.

Men who end up with "nice guy syndrome" really aren't bad people. They aren't all boring, spineless, or uninteresting either, they are just over altruistic, mis-informed, and trouble knowing when and how to define their own boundaries.



lightening020
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24 Jan 2011, 2:55 am

regardless of how relevant it is (like I said I think some of it is but not all), I think it is the wrong way to approach our difficulties, because it doesn't offer any solutions or any productive advice.

All I am saying is lets stop with the stereotypes and really get into the real issues. Why do guys turn into "nice guys" is more important, then "don't be a nice guy" , "don't be a wuss", "be assertive". You see what I am getting at.

Im my opinion this "nice guy" thing is really only 1 small fragment of issues of why I am the way I am and why I feel the way I do.

I am saying that we should get past this stereotype and start addressing real issues that cause it. I feel like "nice guy" debate is the wrong approach and not a good way to facilitate self-help.



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24 Jan 2011, 4:17 am

pffft



Chronos
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24 Jan 2011, 5:01 am

lightening020 wrote:
regardless of how relevant it is (like I said I think some of it is but not all), I think it is the wrong way to approach our difficulties, because it doesn't offer any solutions or any productive advice.

All I am saying is lets stop with the stereotypes and really get into the real issues. Why do guys turn into "nice guys" is more important, then "don't be a nice guy" , "don't be a wuss", "be assertive". You see what I am getting at.

Im my opinion this "nice guy" thing is really only 1 small fragment of issues of why I am the way I am and why I feel the way I do.

I am saying that we should get past this stereotype and start addressing real issues that cause it. I feel like "nice guy" debate is the wrong approach and not a good way to facilitate self-help.


Here is how not to turn into a "nice guy".

Realize that doing nice things for someone, in itself will not make them fall in love with you. Attraction, and forming such bonds with someone, is a far more complex process than that and has both environmental, social, and biological components. This is summarized by the saying "you can't buy love".

When you do something nice for someone, do it because you want to, and not because you expect something in return.

Do give yourself the same respect that you give to your partner. See yourself as much of an asset to her as she is to you. You should not be secretly...or not so secretly, begging for her acceptance at all costs to yourself.

Define your boundaries, to her. This is a hard one for people with AS because it can be difficult for people with AS when this is reasonable to do and when you should make exceptions. If you don't define them enough, you put her in the unwitting position of taking advantage of you, if you define them too much, you come across as selfish and uncaring.

Perhaps an easier thing is to express your needs, such as when you're hungry, tired, not feeling well...women like to know these things and can frequently determine your boundaries based on them.

Contribute to the dynamics of the relationship. It's fine to be a good listener in a conversation, but don't always be a listener. Most girls and women will have at least one female friend who's just as good at listening and twice as good at giving her opinion. If you disagree with her, let her know. If you really want to try that new BBQ place down the street instead of the new salad bar place she recommended, let her know. If you have an idea to do something you think is fun...let her know.



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24 Jan 2011, 11:45 am

thats all good stuff............but thats still really only 5% of the equation.

That already assumes that you got "with" the girl which means you have already done something right.

If you think that hammering out "nice guy" debate all over the place is helpful, then well carry on. I just don't think using a broad NT stereotype is really helpful.

They are a load of other factors in difficulties that aren't even related to the opposite sex that are more important.

"nice guys" is not the root of the issue, and isn't going to make sense to most who haven't been in a relationship before



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24 Jan 2011, 11:53 am

Chronos wrote:
Here is how not to turn into a "nice guy".

Realize that doing nice things for someone, in itself will not make them fall in love with you. Attraction, and forming such bonds with someone, is a far more complex process than that and has both environmental, social, and biological components. This is summarized by the saying "you can't buy love".
I've been aware of this for some time, but still at a loss as to how i can make women be attracted to me.

Quote:
When you do something nice for someone, do it because you want to, and not because you expect something in return.
Yes. This. You don't see Gandhi or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa going "what's in it for me?" Casting off this quid pro quo mentality may not have helped me in the ladies department (see above, nobody is attracted to me), but at least it has helped bring a measure of peace into my life and helped me become a better person.

Quote:
Do give yourself the same respect that you give to your partner. See yourself as much of an asset to her as she is to you. You should not be secretly...or not so secretly, begging for her acceptance at all costs to yourself.
If I did that, I'd be a Jersey Shore douchebag. No, I'm not a "put her on a pedestal" kind of guy, but I give great respect to the woman that would actually tolerate having me around. In an ideal world, my ideal relationship with a woman would be where we give each other all the respect we can, and strengthen as a couple rather than as two imperfect individuals. Alas, it is only an unreachable ideal.

Quote:
Define your boundaries, to her. This is a hard one for people with AS because it can be difficult for people with AS when this is reasonable to do and when you should make exceptions. If you don't define them enough, you put her in the unwitting position of taking advantage of you, if you define them too much, you come across as selfish and uncaring.

Perhaps an easier thing is to express your needs, such as when you're hungry, tired, not feeling well...women like to know these things and can frequently determine your boundaries based on them.
This would be great if i were a catch of any value. As it stands, if I don't give a woman exactly what she wants, she would leave me for better men...

Quote:
Contribute to the dynamics of the relationship. It's fine to be a good listener in a conversation, but don't always be a listener. Most girls and women will have at least one female friend who's just as good at listening and twice as good at giving her opinion. If you disagree with her, let her know. If you really want to try that new BBQ place down the street instead of the new salad bar place she recommended, let her know. If you have an idea to do something you think is fun...let her know.
In my case, I'm always worried... i worry that if I somehow ended up with a woman that actually wanted me for some reason, that disagreeing with her will invite strife and discord into the relationship and destroy it. I do keep my own beliefs, and those would not change even if directly challenged in a relationship, but if a hypothetical girlfriend were to profess something which i disagree with, I would not start a potentially relationship-destroying argument.



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24 Jan 2011, 11:57 am

Quote:
worry that if I somehow ended up with a woman that actually wanted me for some reason, that disagreeing with her will invite strife and discord into the relationship and destroy it.


No one wants a pushover who can't stand up for their own values.



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24 Jan 2011, 12:10 pm

This article does make some good points.