A good article for all you "nice guys" that you sh

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Chronos
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24 Jan 2011, 3:44 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Here is how not to turn into a "nice guy".

Realize that doing nice things for someone, in itself will not make them fall in love with you. Attraction, and forming such bonds with someone, is a far more complex process than that and has both environmental, social, and biological components. This is summarized by the saying "you can't buy love".
I've been aware of this for some time, but still at a loss as to how i can make women be attracted to me.


While you can take certain steps to reduce the chance of being unattractive to someone (see the threads on how not to be creepy and so on), there's nothing you can do to ensure a particular woman will find you attractive. When one person is attractive to another, it's usually a combination of physical features, personality, and biology (hormones/phermones). So I can only tell you what you can do to reduce your chances of repelling women.

ToadOfSteel wrote:
Quote:
When you do something nice for someone, do it because you want to, and not because you expect something in return.
Yes. This. You don't see Gandhi or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa going "what's in it for me?" Casting off this quid pro quo mentality may not have helped me in the ladies department (see above, nobody is attracted to me), but at least it has helped bring a measure of peace into my life and helped me become a better person.

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Do give yourself the same respect that you give to your partner. See yourself as much of an asset to her as she is to you. You should not be secretly...or not so secretly, begging for her acceptance at all costs to yourself.


ToadOfSteel wrote:
If I did that, I'd be a Jersey Shore douchebag.


Here's where you are wrong. I don't know if you actually have "nice guy syndrome" but those who do frequently deem men who do not treat women as well as they think they do, as being jerks. They think if a man ever says no to a woman or demands she afford him the respect one should afford those they care about, then he is a jerk. It is not a binary thing where you are either a pushover or a Jersey Shore douchebag. You want to find that place in the middle called "mutually respectful relationship".

ToadOfSteel wrote:
No, I'm not a "put her on a pedestal" kind of guy, but I give great respect to the woman that would actually tolerate having me around. In an ideal world, my ideal relationship with a woman would be where we give each other all the respect we can, and strengthen as a couple rather than as two imperfect individuals. Alas, it is only an unreachable ideal.


As a woman...and perhaps I'm the odd one out here, but I don't like to be treated as some divine being treated differently just because of my sex, when it's not relevant to certain sex based things. For example, I'm physically weaker, so it would be reasonable for a male friend or boyfriend to help me move something heavy, however a well intending man once intervened in a heated debate I was having with another man, telling him he shouldn't speak "that way" to a woman, and I found it quite insulting, as I am only physically weaker than men, not intellectually weaker. If he wanted to take sides, he should have defended my points with logic, not me as a woman with mis-placed chivalry. I really just like to be treated with the respect one should afford another person regardless of their sex. In the context of a relationship, people generally treat each other with a higher level of respect.

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Define your boundaries, to her. This is a hard one for people with AS because it can be difficult for people with AS when this is reasonable to do and when you should make exceptions. If you don't define them enough, you put her in the unwitting position of taking advantage of you, if you define them too much, you come across as selfish and uncaring.

Perhaps an easier thing is to express your needs, such as when you're hungry, tired, not feeling well...women like to know these things and can frequently determine your boundaries based on them.


ToadOfSteel wrote:
This would be great if i were a catch of any value. As it stands, if I don't give a woman exactly what she wants, she would leave me for better men...


Again, this is a misconception commonly held by those with "nice guy syndrome". Do you think every man in a relationship always gives their girlfriend or woman exactly what she wants? In fact, as can be seen, men who always give women what they say they want, at any inconvenience to them, usually end up as the bitter, lonely "nice guy". A better question might be, do you think all women always know exactly what they want? No. But what men without "nice guy syndrome" have that men with it don't, is the ability to gauge when she really wants what she says she wants, or when it's negotiable.
Again, it comes back to being able to gauge boundaries, needs, limits, and so on.

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Contribute to the dynamics of the relationship. It's fine to be a good listener in a conversation, but don't always be a listener. Most girls and women will have at least one female friend who's just as good at listening and twice as good at giving her opinion. If you disagree with her, let her know. If you really want to try that new BBQ place down the street instead of the new salad bar place she recommended, let her know. If you have an idea to do something you think is fun...let her know.


ToadOfSteel wrote:
In my case, I'm always worried... i worry that if I somehow ended up with a woman that actually wanted me for some reason, that disagreeing with her will invite strife and discord into the relationship and destroy it. I do keep my own beliefs, and those would not change even if directly challenged in a relationship, but if a hypothetical girlfriend were to profess something which i disagree with, I would not start a potentially relationship-destroying argument.


There are aspects of relationships where both parties need to come to a mutual agreement, or one needs to submit to the other whether they agree or not. This is usually on important life decisions. But on more philosophical discussions, you don't always have to come out agreeing with her. People should ideally consider the point of the other before striking it down, but in the end, you can agree to disagree. If you actually hold some world views that she has a major problem with, then perhaps you two aren't actually right for each other.



Jono
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24 Jan 2011, 4:06 pm

Chronos wrote:
A better question might be, do you think all women always know exactly what they want? No. But what men without "nice guy syndrome" have that men with it don't, is the ability to gauge when she really wants what she says she wants, or when it's negotiable.
Again, it comes back to being able to gauge boundaries, needs, limits, and so on.


Doesn't gauging those things require a lot of non-verbal communication? I would imagine that gauging those things would be difficult for aspies.



Homer_Bob
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24 Jan 2011, 7:35 pm

The funny thing is I'm not even that nice, just shy. Sometimes it bugs me when people assume shy guys are nice because not all of them are.


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ToadOfSteel
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25 Jan 2011, 11:32 am

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Here's where you are wrong. I don't know if you actually have "nice guy syndrome" but those who do frequently deem men who do not treat women as well as they think they do, as being jerks. They think if a man ever says no to a woman or demands she afford him the respect one should afford those they care about, then he is a jerk. It is not a binary thing where you are either a pushover or a Jersey Shore douchebag. You want to find that place in the middle called "mutually respectful relationship".
It's not quite that. If someone else says "no" to a woman, its all fine and dandy. It would be all fine with me if I were able to do that, but that generally leads to either rejection or end of relationship for me.

Quote:
As a woman...and perhaps I'm the odd one out here, but I don't like to be treated as some divine being treated differently just because of my sex, when it's not relevant to certain sex based things. For example, I'm physically weaker, so it would be reasonable for a male friend or boyfriend to help me move something heavy, however a well intending man once intervened in a heated debate I was having with another man, telling him he shouldn't speak "that way" to a woman, and I found it quite insulting, as I am only physically weaker than men, not intellectually weaker. If he wanted to take sides, he should have defended my points with logic, not me as a woman with mis-placed chivalry. I really just like to be treated with the respect one should afford another person regardless of their sex. In the context of a relationship, people generally treat each other with a higher level of respect.

For me, it has nothing to do with chivalry. I just happen to think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I fully realize that no one, man or woman, is perfect. But together, we (meaning me and whoever would actually take me) could be just that much closer to perfect.

Quote:
Again, this is a misconception commonly held by those with "nice guy syndrome". Do you think every man in a relationship always gives their girlfriend or woman exactly what she wants? In fact, as can be seen, men who always give women what they say they want, at any inconvenience to them, usually end up as the bitter, lonely "nice guy". A better question might be, do you think all women always know exactly what they want? No. But what men without "nice guy syndrome" have that men with it don't, is the ability to gauge when she really wants what she says she wants, or when it's negotiable.
Again, it comes back to being able to gauge boundaries, needs, limits, and so on.

In case you didn't notice, I didn't use the dichotomy of nice guys/jerks like most people do (okay, I used "Jersey Shore douchebag" once, but not in this particular argument). Here, I said that I have to be perfect, or else women will leave for better men. I know that I have practically no value to women, whereas other men do. That's why they get women when I don't.

Quote:
There are aspects of relationships where both parties need to come to a mutual agreement, or one needs to submit to the other whether they agree or not. This is usually on important life decisions. But on more philosophical discussions, you don't always have to come out agreeing with her. People should ideally consider the point of the other before striking it down, but in the end, you can agree to disagree. If you actually hold some world views that she has a major problem with, then perhaps you two aren't actually right for each other.
In an ideal world, yes its nice to be able to agree to disagree. But for any woman crazy enough to actually want me, disagreeing with her would be, well, lets just say dangerous for my health... Okay, not in every case; i was generally able to disagree with my ex (for example, she had a celebrity crush on New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning, which I as a Giants fan just found weird because I think he is a mediocre QB at best), but in the end I think those disagreements led to the downfall of that relationship.



deadeyexx
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25 Jan 2011, 11:56 am

Homer_Bob wrote:
The funny thing is I'm not even that nice, just shy. Sometimes it bugs me when people assume shy guys are nice because not all of them are.


Yeah, I agree with this statement. Just because you don't actively do bad things doesn't mean you're a good guy. It just means that there is no benefit to being bad.

Lots of young people sacrifice thier good standing with authority in order to gain favor of thier peers. However, if your social skills are so bad your peers reject you anyway, then what's the point of making life harder by causing trouble?



Simonono
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25 Jan 2011, 12:37 pm

I give up... *BANG*



wefunction
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25 Jan 2011, 1:19 pm

I still prefer HBI's definition of "Nice Guy Syndrome".



Aspie_Chav
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25 Jan 2011, 2:07 pm

This article based on the assumption that they are dealing with a nice NT guy not aspie.

An aspie is suppose to some how be assertive to things that the NT care about
while ignoring his own. Like being a doormat while proving that he is no doormat,
with this stupid NT games.



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25 Jan 2011, 2:48 pm

I sense a lot of denial and defensiveness in the thread. :roll:

That article sounds like every guy I've dated. While they may not have been nice guys in reality, they certainly thought they were. And they made most if not all those mistakes with me too, and of course, that I reacted badly to those things was all my fault as well.

The pedestal thing has always been the most irksome. And again, when I've failed to lived up to his completely imaginary, unrealistic and narrow idea of who I'm suppose to be, I've somehow lied and deceived him. Yeah, I love that one. :roll: That was what made me break off my engagement. He was shocked and horrified to find out that I have emotional baggage that predated our relationship, especially in the "angry to suppressed rage" range. One night, he more or less told me I shouldn't be angry at this or that thing, because he thought it was inappropriate of me and because he couldn't handle the idea that I had an emotional history that didn't involved him. I told him that I'll be as angry as I need to be, and then I handed him back the ring.

I can't tell you how many guys I've dated or been friends with who essentially are looking for a woman with no baggage and no past. Just a vague ideal they can adore and not have to contend with as another fully-fledged human being with a past and a mind of her own who they have to learn to love. This pedestal thing is really just ego--an ideal takes up less space in a relationship than a full human person, and that means more room for their ego and their needs. It's also a lot safer than loving another human being.

And don't think for a second that ASD guys don't pull this kind of crap either.



deadeyexx
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25 Jan 2011, 3:04 pm

Mercurial wrote:
The pedestal thing has always been the most irksome. And again, when I've failed to lived up to his completely imaginary, unrealistic and narrow idea of who I'm suppose to be, I've somehow lied and deceived him.


This isn't what the pedistal thing means. It's the extreme humility a man has toward a woman because he's so focused on his own faults, he can't realize hers. Being "nice" is the only way he feels worthy enough to talk to her.