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visagrunt
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02 Feb 2011, 4:33 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I think West Bank may end up becoming an independent Palestinian State, because the government in West Bank hates Hamas to the point they're willing to work with Israel.


That's certainly a possible outcome, but I wonder how a Fatah led state on the West Bank would cope with the internal fallout from leaving Gaza behind.

If a substantial deal on Jerusalem came with the bargain, who knows?


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Vexcalibur
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02 Feb 2011, 9:52 pm

SaNcheNuSS wrote:
It is so good that the people are now waking up in the Third World. This is going to cause a ripple effect. Look for other oppressed nations in the Third World to rise up :-)





The people are waking up. I set the alarm clocks.
People in the third world have "woken up" hundreds of years ago, and that's part of the problem. They'd rather protest than fix their problems, they are lazy, have a huge sense of entitlement and are even more wasteful of resources than 1st-worlders. They protest against tyrants not because they want freedom but only when there are economic issues and have no problem electing populists that become such tyrants. In fact, they don't want any freedom, because that would mean things would be more of their responsibility than others' .

visagrunt wrote:
I have yet to be persuaded that this is an exercise in popular uprising. I am still waiting to see which pots of money are driving this, and what the role of Iran, Syria and Hamas is in all of this.

It is the people of Egypt, really. The economy and unemployment were getting awful specially among the more educated because they couldn't find jobs for their qualifications. Stop fantasizing about Iran or Syria or Hamas (LOL!) being that powerful or that united (LOL!). Foreign money can't buy millions of protesters, if Iran had such enormous amounts of money, they wouldn't need control over Egypt.

It is true that the currently horribly disorganized protests will probably be hijacked by someone. But seriously, it is no time to speculate whom will eventually manage to get advantage of it. For what we know, it is equally likely that a US puppet will take over as it is of a crazy Muslim. Or perhaps a crazy US puppet Muslim, who knows?...


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The potential nightmare scenario is a Hamas-friendly government composed of Muslim Brotherhood supporters who open the border with Gaza, giving Iran relatively free access. The prospects of a Palestinian state will be put back by a decade or more, and the prospect of a shooting war will become significantly advanced.

Mubarak may have been a tyrant, but what is he being replaced with? Sometimes, truly, it is, "better the devil you know."

Sometimes I wonder if this is what you US war nuts actually want to happen.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 03 Feb 2011, 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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02 Feb 2011, 11:13 pm

Gotta love a light cavalry charge right past M1A1 tanks. That was a wtf sight.

Right in front of a museum housing 5,000 of human history they are battling with fire and stones. The ticker should read: Mankind learns nothing in 5,000 years.



Vexcalibur
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02 Feb 2011, 11:33 pm

Hell yeah. At least if guns were legal in there, they would have shown mankind did learn something.


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02 Feb 2011, 11:54 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
SaNcheNuSS wrote:
It is so good that the people are now waking up in the Third World. This is going to cause a ripple effect. Look for other oppressed nations in the Third World to rise up :-)





The people are waking up. I set the alarm clocks.
People in the third world have "woken up" hundreds of years ago, and that's part of the problem. They'd rather protest than fix their problems, they are lazy, have a huge sense of entitlement and are even more wasteful of resources than 1st-worlders. They protest against tyrants not because they want freedom but only when there are economic issues and have no problem electing populists that become such tyrants. In fact, they don't want any freedom, because that would mean things would be more of their responsibility than others' .
Image

No one even said any of those things in this thread, so stop taking every specific issue as an opportunity to dump your truck load of contempt for the right wing. They're standing up and refusing to be shafted by tyranny, so I wish nothing but the best for em. s**t does everything have to degenerate into political scapegoating?



Vexcalibur
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03 Feb 2011, 12:06 am

No one said those things? I quoted the OP dude.

I want Mubarak's government to end, it is tyranny and a negative dictatorship. But come to think about it, Mubarak was there for how long? 30 years? The "state of emergency" was there for just as long. There was tyranny in Egypt for decades. The people are rising not because they want freedom, but because of the economic issues. I applaud they are going to take down Mubarak with it, and I love that they may even get a chance to get more democracy. But let us not fool ourselves, they could have taken Mubarak down 25, 20, 15, 10, 5 years ago if they didn't like the tyranny - they didn't . Freedom was not their priority. The main reason they are doing this is the economy, the unemployment has become a huge issue these last years and thus it exploded.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 03 Feb 2011, 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

AceOfSpades
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03 Feb 2011, 12:09 am

I'm referring to your smart ass irrelevant rant about the right wing pertaining to a sense of entitlement, apathy, and freedom. Right wingers aren't crows, so don't bother putting up straw men.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 03 Feb 2011, 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Vexcalibur
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03 Feb 2011, 12:13 am

Quote:
They'd rather protest than fix their problems, they are lazy, have a huge sense of entitlement and are even more wasteful of resources than 1st-worlders. They protest against tyrants not because they want freedom but only when there are economic issues and have no problem electing populists that become such tyrants. In fact, they don't want any freedom, because that would mean things would be more of their responsibility than others' .
This is a rant about most people in the third world. They really are so stupid like that, most of them are in the left. It is a rant because I've seen it happen and it burns my veins.

So, if you think this is a rant against the right, maybe you are just projecting your own feelings about the right on my rant.

And the point of my rant was mostly to remind the OP that there are protests and changes of governments every 5 seconds in the third world, and they don't fix anything. The over-optimistic stuff he said about the third world people waking up is too far from reality.


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03 Feb 2011, 12:19 am

Your tone looked pretty sarcastic to me, but if it wasn't then I take it back cuz it looked like a dead on right wing parody.



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03 Feb 2011, 12:27 am

That's always the problem. Everything has to be about the right or the left, but I don't care. To be honest, I believe that there should be taxes and that people should help each other, and that government should provide health care and education, and I guess for that matter I am in the left when you compare me to an American. But that is not remotely close to the left I have come to known.

If it was for the people in my country, no prices should ever go up (subventions), the government should give them money. No, not welfare, not healthcare, not education, but plain money. And not for disability or anything like that, but for nothing. And of course, the government has to obey, because else protests would take it down. And then, when there is food scarcity because the subsidized prices are so low that the food leaks away of the country since everybody nearby has real world prices and thus it is a lot more profitable to sell stuff outside. They cry and demand more money and more subvention of prices. And this is all due to populist, tyrant governments that climbed up in power because of protests. The third world should stop "waking up" and begin actually working.

And well, this is more about the third world as I know it and not that much about Egypt. From all I have watched so far, (I tried tons of networks from CNN, BBC, Aljazeera and Telesur) every analyst was pointing out to the economy for the main trigger of it. But at least the protesters were asking for actual freedom and the end of tyranny. So, that's an improvement. But I just didn't buy that the third world is waking up or phrases like those the OP said.


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03 Feb 2011, 1:35 am

There is a distinct possibility that this is a setup funded by Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood is a known fanatic organization that is out to set up a sunni version of Iran and immediately start another war with Israel. Just what we need in the Middle East World War III. :roll:



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03 Feb 2011, 1:59 am

No more than the Iranian protests a few years ago were a setup by Mossad and the CIA. :roll:

My take: people genuinely don't like living under a police state. If the the new Egyptian government is anti-western it will be because of our support for their soon to be former dictator rather than them becoming radical islamists. The Iranian Revolution itself was blowback from our support of the autocratic Shah.



ruveyn
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03 Feb 2011, 6:49 am

Jacoby wrote:
No more than the Iranian protests a few years ago were a setup by Mossad and the CIA. :roll:

My take: people genuinely don't like living under a police state. If the the new Egyptian government is anti-western it will be because of our support for their soon to be former dictator rather than them becoming radical islamists. The Iranian Revolution itself was blowback from our support of the autocratic Shah.


The U.S. has paid dearly and will pay even more for getting rid of Mossidegh back in 1953. That let the Shi'ite djinn out of the bottle. God is Just and His Justice will not be forever denied.

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Vexcalibur
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03 Feb 2011, 8:10 am

Inuyasha wrote:
There is a distinct possibility that this is a setup funded by Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood is a known fanatic organization that is out to set up a sunni version of Iran and immediately start another war with Israel. Just what we need in the Middle East World War III. :roll:
Iran must be the top economic superpower to dispose enough money to put 5 million people on the streets, and also to do so in a way that the Egypt government would not find out preventively.

You guys sound like if you wished there was a war with Israel...


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03 Feb 2011, 8:40 am

Power to the people can only be a good thing. Protesting to overthrow your dictatorship, doubley so.



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03 Feb 2011, 11:21 am

visagrunt wrote:
SaNcheNuSS wrote:
It is so good that the people are now waking up in the Third World. This is going to cause a ripple effect. Look for other oppressed nations in the Third World to rise up :-)





The people are waking up. I set the alarm clocks.


I have yet to be persuaded that this is an exercise in popular uprising. I am still waiting to see which pots of money are driving this, and what the role of Iran, Syria and Hamas is in all of this.

The potential nightmare scenario is a Hamas-friendly government composed of Muslim Brotherhood supporters who open the border with Gaza, giving Iran relatively free access. The prospects of a Palestinian state will be put back by a decade or more, and the prospect of a shooting war will become significantly advanced.

Mubarak may have been a tyrant, but what is he being replaced with? Sometimes, truly, it is, "better the devil you know."


Youre worried about the right thing for the wrong reason.
How do you "bankroll" mobs in the streets?
It obviously is the spontaneous combustion of a home grown real revolt inspired by events in Tunisia and sparked the peasants wanting bread rebelling against a let-em-cake regime.

The question is when that crucial moment comes when the old order is overturned but the new order has yet to form will this revoltion by hijacked by some fanatatical minority who will turn out to be tyrants themselves? Or will it succeed in bringing democracy?
Either outcome is possible.

Both the French Revolution of the 1780's, and the Iranian Revolution of the 1970's were prime examples of the former happening. The fanatical minorities in both cases were home grown and got no help from outsiders.

Once the revolution is underway then possibly outsiders might aid such a fanatical group to hijack the revolution.

However I suspect the Iran would have little influence even (indeed especially) among the most rabid of Egyptian Islamists because Iran is Shiite and Egypt is overwhelmingly Sunni.
For Hamas to comandeer Egypt would be like an opposition group in Haiti taking over the United States even BEFORE they succeeded in taking over Haiti. Your talking about one of two rival political parties in a small Arab nation (Palestine) wielding power over the largest of all Arab nations (Egypt).