Why do they marry them?

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03 Mar 2011, 3:25 pm

Well, recently, painfully, I have learned that despite the years of careful, painstaking social skill learning and social behaviour mimicry I have undergone, all the hard work, my personality is still the same: clumsy, gauche, impulsive, abrupt, irreverent, and though very sympathetic, very unempathetic in terms of aligning myself with what the person/situation requires at the time.

Even though I have emotional intelligence, socially I am like a 6 year old girl trying her mother's evening dress and high heels on.

So, from what I know, you can learn new behaviours, but the base personality remains the same. Im not really convinced that people really can change, you are what you are.

I think what really counts is doing something amazing with what you have. But you cant do that when you are too busy trying to be something you are not.

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Last edited by zen_mistress on 03 Mar 2011, 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Moog
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03 Mar 2011, 3:26 pm

starygrrl wrote:

Moog wrote:

HopeGrows wrote:

Uhh, I don't want to throw any more fuel on any bonfires, but I'm not convinced this is true. I keep looking at studies that claim physical structure changes are possible. In fact, I'm pretty sure that that's what happens when you change a habit or a behaviour; you actually etch a new neuronal 'groove' into the physical brain structure.

I wish I was more certain on this point, but I'm not.

This is true, but it often takes years of music or meditation to effect it in a way that is beneficial for somebody on the spectrum. For example I pick up on vocal intonation, that is a change.
This is kind of complicated, because these changes only happens with significant dedication.

I wouldn't make any claims that changing the brain is necessarily easy (if it were, this forum may not exist, for example), just that it seems possible.

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starygrrl
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03 Mar 2011, 3:30 pm

zen_mistress wrote:

This. I think if somebody wants to be with them, they should accept them. While relationships are hard work, and do require some compromise, it is accepting a person which is essential.

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03 Mar 2011, 3:35 pm

starygrrl wrote:

zen_mistress wrote:

This. I think if somebody wants to be with them, they should accept them. While relationships are hard work, and do require some compromise, it is accepting a person which is essential.

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03 Mar 2011, 3:39 pm

Thanks, both of you... : )

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03 Mar 2011, 5:14 pm

@starygrrl, I think you're great at repeating your beliefs. I understand you believe I lack the requisite skills to possibly ever understand an Aspie's perspective. I understand you believe that I'm just dead wrong. I don't agree with either of those statements; you haven't backed them up with any facts (you're apparently drawing on your own experience of autism - which is valid for you, but is also uniquely your own). Stating that you really, really, really believe your perspective to be valid doesn't do a thing for me. It doesn't disprove my own experiences, the research I've done, or the people I know. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. You can be snarky about it, but it won't change anything.

starygrrl wrote:

I am being quite honest there is a reason why aspies don't catelog these things in the same way, and this is something NT partners will have to deal with. We are hyperfocused on our interests, and things outside our interests may not play as large of a role. There is also excutive functioning issues going on here as well. Because many of the things you are saying are emotionally important.

Thank you for agreeing with me: I said that the issue is not intellectual capacity, so it must be a lack of interest, priority, etc. So we can agreee that an Aspie is capable of learning quite a bit about his/her NT partner, they'd just prefer not to?

As far as your comment that the examples I've provided are "emotionally important" - what difference does that make? I'm not asking an Aspie to understand why something is emotionally important to his/her NT partner - just to accept that it is important. Would I expect my Aspie partner to know how it feels to me when he tells me he loves me, or why I like to hear it more than once? No. As long as what he's saying is true (that he does love me), I like hearing it. Why does anything else matter? To be very, very clear: you think that I expect some kind of emotional awakening in an Aspie. Your interpretation of my post is absolutely incorrect - that is not my expectation. I'm talking about behaviors, not feelings.

I'm certainly not expecting any partner, Aspie or NT, to be a mind reader. In fact, I think these are exactly the type of details that should be worked out and discussed in an Aspie/NT relationship. Your perspective seems to be that if a behavior doesn't come naturally to an Aspie, too bad. I'm sorry, that's not a relationship between two adults you're describing - more like the hostage situation described earlier in this thread.

Having dinner together as a family may seem like a "sentimental ritual" to you, but most of us realize that it's part of being a family: spending time together; taking an interest in each other's lives; understanding what each person is experiencing. Again, you haven't addressed the idea that all partners engage in certain behaviors at times simply because it is important to their partner - why do Aspie partners get a pass? Frankly, if an Aspie isn't willing to make sacrifices to be in a relationship, he/she probably shouldn't pursue a relationship - particularly with an NT.

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03 Mar 2011, 5:20 pm

Stargrrl, while I agree with a lot of what you said, a couple of points you made has caught my eye and I would like to comment on them:

starygrrl wrote:

Quote:

If she'd like to hear, "I love you," more often than never, why can't an Aspie partner learn to say it?

We are not mind readers, you should repeat that over and over. In fact this may be more complicated, because the truth may sting even more, it may not be said because it is not even be true. If as you are saying these women are desperate to make it work, the guy on the spectrum may not love her any more. In fact even fishing for this is problematic. This is just not how aspies operate frequently, they will say it when it is time to and when they mean it, not necessarily because the other partner wants to hear it, that requires empathy and lying to appease the other person. The real truth of the matter is thier mind is probably some place else to even think about it.

Often it's not because the guy doesn't love her anymore but rather because the aspie doesn't see the need to keep repeating it. There have been many posts in this forum where aspie men have even acknowledged this. To routinely say "I love you" feels repetitive and almost OCD to us, especially when we think the person already knows this. However, have you ever listened to an NT man talking to his NT wife/partner on the phone or visa versa? It's my observation that the conversation usually ends with "I love you". Aspies, including myself, don't understand why this is needed but it seems like NT's want it.

starygrrl wrote:

Quote:

If it's important to have dinner as a family every evening, why can't an Aspie buy a watch with an alarm - just in case he gets distracted by his work, and loses track of time?

Is it important to you? Truth be told NT sentimental rituals don't have much value for aspies. We do things out of habit. Truth be told, the importance of this may be for NT, but truth be told how important is it.

This is mostly true. For example, I often forget a lot of special dates, including my moms birthday, because they're not on my priority list. However, I usually feel bad when I do, if only because they are important to other people (even though my dad and sister usually bail me out, being the ones to remember). Additionally, I think this type of thing is still perfectly comprisable in a relationship situation on the aspies end though. All you have to do is make a dates to remember list or set a reminder on your cellphone when a special date nears and I think that's what Hopegrows is getting at with this point. Besides, whether you are an aspie or not, I think it would kind of suck for partner if she had to consistently buy her own birthday present.

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03 Mar 2011, 5:21 pm

starygrrl wrote:

HopeGrows wrote:

Grisha wrote:

Excellent post!

I think that a lot of NT partners would be a lot less frustrated/confused if the could grasp the idea you've articulated.

It's like dating a quadriplegic and and then wondering why they can't go jogging with you.

We can discuss "substitutes" (artificial limbs, wheelchairs, etc) but the limbs themselves are never going to appear...

Again, confusing what is impossible and what is inconvenient is the self-limiting flaw in this line of thought. Changing the physical structure of your brain isn't possible - an Aspie will always have a disability. However, it is possible to change certain behaviors, thought patterns, knowledge levels, expectations, attitudes, and priorities.. From my perspective, the difference between Aspies in successful relationships and those who can't seem to make any relationship work is expectation (they know that relationships require compromise), effort, and honesty. IMO, Aspies would be a lot less frustrated and a lot more successful in relationships if they could grasp that.

Hopegrows, no offense, you are fooling yourself. I am not saying that some behaviors cannot change, meltdowns for example can be reduced, but that often requires recognizing what causes them and eliminating said causes of stress. That again, has to be entirely identified and dictated by the aspie and not questioned. The priorities of the NT take a back seat to reduce this behavior. Is being at family events causing said problems, well...guess what, they will not attend family events any more (for me I don't speak to my family anymore). We often have to adapt ourselves significantly just to manage and reduce stress, and I don't think you quite grasp how significant those adaptations have to be. The truth is many people on the spectrum have a hard time managing this, or talking about it. Its not easy to verbalize in many ways and takes a considerable amount of thought. Compromising these situations to much, while may be possible for a short time, may eventually lead to negative long term effects. It is like trying to make a gay person straight, it simply does not work that way.

Then again, it is abundently clear from your failures reflect your flawed attitude. That aspies can change things that are central to who they are, compromising certian aspects of thier personality and who they are, makes things worse for them and causes significant stress, which in turn causes meltdowns and shutdowns. Compromise goes so far, and the things you are speaking about often cannot be compromised for an aspie. Then again I am in a very good relationship with a partner who gets this and you have been divorced twice learning nothing from your previous relationships from people on the spectrum. You are sorely mistaken. While a relationship is based on partially on compromise and hard work, it is also based accepting a partner for who they are and recognizing and accepting the things they cannot change. People who demand compromise on parts of them which they cannot change are the ones who like you, often end up in failed relationships. Like I said it is extremely obvious you know nothing about being on the spectrum and have not learned a damn thing from being with people on the spectrum. Instead you keep these foolish ideas in your head.

You think you can change things which are at the heart of being on the spectrum. You can't.

@starygrrl, if you can manage it, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't speak about things you're ignorant of: I've never been divorced - not once, not twice. You should perhaps try putting your assumptions and projections aside long enough to read what people write. It might actually further the conversation, and who knows? You might actually learn something.

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03 Mar 2011, 5:26 pm

It seems like I had the right idea derailing this thread

Everybody involved should take a deep breath and read the TOS - stop making assumptions about others and calling them names. Further personal attacks won't be tolerated.

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03 Mar 2011, 5:55 pm

The more I read this post about how NT women cant accept AS men & how NT men are more accepting of AS women; the more I think Aspies guys should be gay

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03 Mar 2011, 6:10 pm

nick007 wrote:

The more I read this post about how NT women cant accept AS men & how NT men are more accepting of AS women; the more I think Aspies guys should be gay

Interesting point, but moot - being gay is not a lifestyle choice anymore that being Aspie is.

Maybe more Aspie guys should be NT? :wink:

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03 Mar 2011, 7:15 pm

nick007 wrote:

The more I read this post about how NT women cant accept AS men & how NT men are more accepting of AS women; the more I think Aspies guys should be gay

Goodness. There's just ONE NT woman in this thread who can't accept an aspie man the way he is. There's plenty of NT/AS relationships that get along just fine. Even at times when NT women come here complaining, they're doing it because they want to learn, not because they've already made up their mind and judged everyone. We can't let one rotten apple spoil the bunch! Have hope... no pun intended. You should only be gay if you are gay. Otherwise, it's just more awkwardness.

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03 Mar 2011, 8:21 pm

wefunction wrote:

nick007 wrote:

The more I read this post about how NT women cant accept AS men & how NT men are more accepting of AS women; the more I think Aspies guys should be gay

@wefunction, gosh it's great to hear from you again. Oh wait - you're just here slinging mud and insults as usual....yeah, not so great, really. Again, it would be awesome if you actually read what I've written before you start the name-calling. "Even at times when NT women come here complaining, they're doing it because they want to learn," - that's the point I've been making in every post I've written in this thread.

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03 Mar 2011, 10:07 pm

When I see some NTs, I wonder how anyone could think it's only aspies who can be self-absorbed and unable to function. I really think it's important for people to find matches who are appropriate for them instead of forcefully trying to change people into someone different. People deserved to be loved for who they are. I have that so I know that exists. My wish is for every man and woman, no matter what disorders they may or may not have, to find that kind of love and compassion. People who demand that their partner change things they cannot change just make life miserable. I wouldn't wish that kind of life on anybody. If any aspie is with someone who makes those demands without any understanding and refuses to gain that understanding from peers or from counseling, RUN from them. Don't walk. RUN. There is someone better out there waiting for you!

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03 Mar 2011, 10:14 pm

It would be useful if people would pay closer attention to what's being said instead reacting emotionally. There's obviously a lot of tension between some of you that would be best resolved privately - if this thread degenerates into a personal conflict or AS vs NT war you'll force me to lock it.

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03 Mar 2011, 11:08 pm

wefunction wrote:

You are just so damaging, @wefunction. I hope all the men you're giving this incredibly poor advice to really, really like listening to you, because you and the other women on this board are the only female contact they're going to have for years to come. Keep telling them that any behavior they don't particularly want to examine, any compromise they don't "feel" they should have to make, any psychological disorder they don't want to treat, etc. is okay to ignore - and they will be alone, isolated, and unloved for the rest of their lives. Here's a little secret @wefunction: men - especially NT men - will put up with a lot of BS in exchange for steady sex from an emotionally low maintenance woman. Women - Aspie or NT - won't typically put up with the level of BS you're promoting from any man - regardless of how handsome he is, how much money he makes, how charming he seems. You absolutely cannot extrapolate your NT relationship experience to an Aspie man's experience, and you're reckless to do so. You think it's unreasonable to ask a man to come home for dinner with his family every night? Really? You think it's unreasonable to ask an Aspie man you're dating to help you understand his disability? Really? Cause the last Aspie I dated broke up with me for that. (Oddly enough, no successful relationships for him since then - no relationships period.) But you're right - the relationship failed because of me and my unreasonable expectations - like thinking he might help me understand his disability.

Really, though - keep dishing out advice like you do, and guys like him will keep convincing themselves that they're not the reason they're alone - it's the planet full of NT women who don't understand that their job is to behave like his mother, not his partner. Relationships are a team sport, @wefunction: if you want someone to care about you, accommodate you, compromise for you - you'd sure as hell better be prepared to do your best to reciprocate. Or get a sex doll, and listen to strangers on the internet tell you how righteously awesome you are for refusing to work at a relationship. Yeah....you'll keep them company while they wait for that someone "better" to come along. Good luck with that.

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